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Old 11-12-2017, 01:36 PM   #46
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Re: Goliath grouper workshops scheduled in Florida from July 31, 2017 to October 18,

LOL.. I misread your statement Tony. I was honestly confused.

Do I think the stock is recovered?

I don't know the answer to that, but killing 100 fish sure ain't gonna do much to the populations in the SE Atlantic and the Gulf.

As we continue to destroy the estuaries, sea grasses, mangroves and degrade the quality of runoff, I'm not so confident that we will ever reach the historic abundance of the species.

As i have said before, a continued failure to open up some sort of take, will probably result in MORE GG being killed. Lotsa people are perfectly willing to "thin the heard" if the government won't "act responsibly" - in their minds of course.


Not so different than when the divers saw the GG populations fall year after year and they voluntarily stopped killing them .. even though it was perfectly legal to do so.

I couldn't find a legal gag grouper in 20 dives around here, but I sure as hell could find 20 GG in one day if I wanted.
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Old 11-12-2017, 06:59 PM   #47
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Question Re: Goliath grouper workshops scheduled in Florida from July 31, 2017 to October 18,

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfjf View Post
LOL.. I misread your statement Tony. I was honestly confused.

Do I think the stock is recovered?

I don't know the answer to that, but killing 100 fish sure ain't gonna do much to the populations in the SE Atlantic and the Gulf.

As we continue to destroy the estuaries, sea grasses, mangroves and degrade the quality of runoff, I'm not so confident that we will ever reach the historic abundance of the species.

As i have said before, a continued failure to open up some sort of take, will probably result in MORE GG being killed. Lotsa people are perfectly willing to "thin the heard" if the government won't "act responsibly" - in their minds of course.

Not so different than when the divers saw the GG populations fall year after year and they voluntarily stopped killing them .. even though it was perfectly legal to do so.

I couldn't find a legal gag grouper in 20 dives around here, but I sure as hell could find 20 GG in one day if I wanted.
Jim, I have a few questions for you.

1.) Your post seems to associate the absence of gag groupers around here to the presence of goliath groupers. Do you think they are the cause of that decline? Have you looked at low trophic level of goliath diet as well as the stomach content research?

2.) Do your realize historical abundance is just one factor in the modeling for "recovery"?

3.) Do you feel let down by the government because goliath groupers have been closed since 1990?

4.) Do you believe 100 goliaths per year for 4 years will make a difference in fisher stolen catches? I spoke with the leader of a large fishing club last week and asked that exact question. He said it will not make a difference.

5.) Do you believe the human desire and action of adding more and more artificial structure that aggregates many fish species besides goliaths has anything to do with this issue? I asked that same fishing club leader what they do when goliaths steal their hooked fish? He said they just move to another fishing spot.

Thoughts?

Tony
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Old 11-12-2017, 08:22 PM   #48
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Re: Goliath grouper workshops scheduled in Florida from July 31, 2017 to October 18,

A lot of hog wash here. Return the GG's to their relative levels and be done with it. It's well known that they are overpopulated.
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Old 11-12-2017, 08:28 PM   #49
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Re: Goliath grouper workshops scheduled in Florida from July 31, 2017 to October 18,

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpearMax View Post
Jim, I have a few questions for you.

1.) Your post seems to associate the absence of gag groupers around here to the presence of goliath groupers. Do you think they are the cause of that decline? Have you looked at low trophic level of goliath diet as well as the stomach content research?

2.) Do your realize historical abundance is just one factor in the modeling for "recovery"?

3.) Do you feel let down by the government because goliath groupers have been closed since 1990?

4.) Do you believe 100 goliaths per year for 4 years will make a difference in fisher stolen catches? I spoke with the leader of a large fishing club last week and asked that exact question. He said it will not make a difference.

5.) Do you believe the human desire and action of adding more and more artificial structure that aggregates many fish species besides goliaths has anything to do with this issue? I asked that same fishing club leader what they do when goliaths steal their hooked fish? He said they just move to another fishing spot.

Thoughts?

Tony
No I mention gag groupers because I know people who lived and hunted here 35 years ago and they could (apparently) always find a few gags to spear - any time of the year. Now they are pretty much absent except during seasonal migrations. Apparently there was a resident population and that is gone.

The regulators have allowed gags to reach this level, while GG populations are much greater than 20-25 years ago. Certainly seems like a disparity in regulatory "priorities".

No, taking 100 GG is not going to change their behavior or their abundance, but it MAY appease - to some extent the people who will "take things into their own hands".

Do I feel let down? I've been disappointed by many things I see in in various governmental entities. I think we are rapidly approaching the point where some sort of fishery would be sustainable.

The issue with aggregations on artificial reefs is very challenging. Not too long ago we hit a few wrecks in Stuart and the GG were super aggressive and made it basically impossible to take any fish. Moving to another wreck is not a viable alternative if they are stacked up on every structure and are habituated to following divers.

Their aggressiveness is somewhat dangerous to freedivers, it is more than a nuisance. It is not that unusual to see the big boys with a little white spot, not far from the kill spot. Somebody is trying to teach them a lesson.
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Old 11-12-2017, 08:32 PM   #50
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Re: Goliath grouper workshops scheduled in Florida from July 31, 2017 to October 18,

Tony, what is your response to my questions in post in #25? Or are you going to now ignore me now that I pointed out your hypocrisy?
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Old 11-13-2017, 11:39 AM   #51
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Smile Re: Goliath grouper workshops scheduled in Florida from July 31, 2017 to October 18,

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Originally Posted by rowow View Post
Tony, what is your response to my questions in post in #25? Or are you going to now ignore me now that I pointed out your hypocrisy?
No rowow. I'm not ignoring you. Calm down.

I answered your questions in my subsequent posts directed at JFJF except this one:

Quote:
Originally Posted by rowow View Post

On another note I was having trouble in finding a plot graph or a specific high/low for various fish such as tile/marlin/tuna. The best thing I could find was that jerky study. So if you are able to find any more studies I would be glad to see them.
Try Google scholar in your search for the above.

Tony
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Old 11-13-2017, 11:43 AM   #52
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Re: Goliath grouper workshops scheduled in Florida from July 31, 2017 to October 18,

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Originally Posted by SpearMax View Post
No rowow. I'm not ignoring you. Calm down.

I answered your questions in my subsequent posts directed at JFJF except this one:



Try Google scholar in your search for the above.

Tony
I dont see your response? Could you repost them or show what post # they are located in.

And thanks for google scholar, already found the information but ill use it for further research.
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Old 11-14-2017, 09:10 AM   #53
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Lightbulb Re: Goliath grouper workshops scheduled in Florida from July 31, 2017 to October 18,

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfjf View Post
GG populations are much greater than 20-25 years ago.
Jim, I am surprised you would reference the goliath population 20-25 years ago. That would be the years 1992 to 1997, correct?

That time period is right after the 1990 closure after a significant time period when they were almost fished into extinction per these graphs below. Note - the post closure fishing is recreational catch and release fishing. Of course goliath populations are "much greater" than that time period. The base period you should be looking at is further back in time.

It seems as though many of your recent arguments for the goliath take involves a logic fallacy called:

Argumentum ad populum (which is to appeal to widespread belief, bandwagon argument, appeal to the majority, appeal to the people) – where a proposition is claimed to be true or good solely because many people believe it to be so.

For example, you seem to argue mercury is not a significant issue, the number of goliaths today means they have recovered, thinning the herd is resultant behavior from not opened to this take, goliaths are eating x, y and z and so forth on and on.

These may be popular beliefs about goliath grouper, but are not the scientific truth.

I thought you knew better.

Tony








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Last edited by SpearMax; 11-14-2017 at 09:59 AM.
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Old 11-14-2017, 08:11 PM   #54
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Re: Goliath grouper workshops scheduled in Florida from July 31, 2017 to October 18,

[quote=SpearMax;2156441]

Jim, I am surprised you would reference the goliath population 20-25 years ago. That would be the years 1992 to 1997, correct?

That time period is right after the 1990 closure after a significant time period when they were almost fished into extinction per these graphs below. Note - the post closure fishing is recreational catch and release fishing. Of course goliath populations are "much greater" than that time period. The base period you should be looking at is further back in time.

It seems as though many of your recent arguments for the goliath take involves a logic fallacy called:

Argumentum ad populum (which is to appeal to widespread belief, bandwagon argument, appeal to the majority, appeal to the people) where a proposition is claimed to be true or good solely because many people believe it to be so.

For example, you seem to argue mercury is not a significant issue, the number of goliaths today means they have recovered, thinning the herd is resultant behavior from not opened to this take, goliaths are eating x, y and z and so forth on and on.

These may be popular beliefs about goliath grouper, but are not the scientific truth.

I thought you knew better.

Tony


The population of GG has recovered dramatically in the last 20 or 25 years, that is a fact and is not a false statement, yet somehow you want to spin it as "wrong"

I do not believe i mentioned anything in this thread about GG eating anything, certainly not x, y or z.

I have not argued mercury content is not a concern, I simply pointed out that the published data shows similar levels in other commercially harvested species and I also (finally) got an acknowledgement that GG are fine to eat if they are small enough.

The new, unpublished mercury data for the large males definitely gives you something to think about.

Did Dr Koenig lobby the FWC to modify their slot size to be limited to smaller fish, since public health seems to be such a concern? Or is he (still) against ANY take?

I remember him telling me that there should never be any harvest here until the species has re-estabished successfully within the entire (international) historic range. A concept I found hard to reconcile - when it is still legal to harvest jewfish in the Bahamas - or that is my impression anyway.
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Old 11-15-2017, 08:33 AM   #55
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Lightbulb Re: Goliath grouper workshops scheduled in Florida from July 31, 2017 to October 18,

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfjf View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpearMax View Post


Jim, I am surprised you would reference the goliath population 20-25 years ago. That would be the years 1992 to 1997, correct?

That time period is right after the 1990 closure after a significant time period when they were almost fished into extinction per these graphs below. Note - the post closure fishing is recreational catch and release fishing. Of course goliath populations are "much greater" than that time period. The base period you should be looking at is further back in time.

It seems as though many of your recent arguments for the goliath take involves a logic fallacy called:

Argumentum ad populum (which is to appeal to widespread belief, bandwagon argument, appeal to the majority, appeal to the people) – where a proposition is claimed to be true or good solely because many people believe it to be so.

For example, you seem to argue mercury is not a significant issue, the number of goliaths today means they have recovered, thinning the herd is resultant behavior from not opened to this take, goliaths are eating x, y and z and so forth on and on.

These may be popular beliefs about goliath grouper, but are not the scientific truth.

I thought you knew better.

Tony
The population of GG has recovered dramatically in the last 20 or 25 years, that is a fact and is not a false statement, yet somehow you want to spin it as "wrong"

I do not believe i mentioned anything in this thread about GG eating anything, certainly not x, y or z.

I have not argued mercury content is not a concern, I simply pointed out that the published data shows similar levels in other commercially harvested species and I also (finally) got an acknowledgement that GG are fine to eat if they are small enough.

The new, unpublished mercury data for the large males definitely gives you something to think about.

Did Dr Koenig lobby the FWC to modify their slot size to be limited to smaller fish, since public health seems to be such a concern? Or is he (still) against ANY take?

I remember him telling me that there should never be any harvest here until the species has re-estabished successfully within the entire (international) historic range. A concept I found hard to reconcile - when it is still legal to harvest jewfish in the Bahamas - or that is my impression anyway.
Jim, you seem to be missing the point about what a recovery actually means.

Educate yourself by reading up on the fish named Cod that was almost wiped out like goliath groupers were:

Cod make a comeback thanks to strict cuts in fishing

https://www.newscientist.com/article...ts-in-fishing/

To the best of my knowledge, Koenig never said recovery means "the species has re-established successfully within the entire (international) historic range." I recall no such statement from Koenig. How do you conjure such fantasies? Do you have written evidence of this wild claim?

Additionally, how can you say Koenig is "(still) against ANY take" when I provided you with his proposed Take of juveniles which are primarily located in SW Florida in the post 45 above?

I have re-attached the Koenig proposed take of juveniles in his 2016 published Marfin Report to this post so maybe this time you will take the time to open it, read it and understand it instead of posting a sloppy response of such an incredulous question.

Cheers, Tony

Last edited by SpearMax; 11-15-2017 at 08:56 AM.
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Old 11-15-2017, 12:29 PM   #56
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Re: Goliath grouper workshops scheduled in Florida from July 31, 2017 to October 18,

Tony,

I clearly state that Dr Koenig told me something. I recall it clearly . You then demand written proof of the content of our private conversation. Wouldn't it make more sense to ask him if he recalls that conversation? If he is unable to recall it then you might have some justification to claim I am fantasizing, but to demand written proof of a prior conversation held maybe 4 years ago between two people on a boat is a little over the top don't ya think?

You still have not answered my question which was has Dr k actively lobbied the fwc for a recreational fishery being opened now? Just a question, I won't ask for written evidence of such.
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Old 11-15-2017, 12:31 PM   #57
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Re: Goliath grouper workshops scheduled in Florida from July 31, 2017 to October 18,

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpearMax View Post
[size="5"]

Jim, I am surprised you would reference the goliath population 20-25 years ago. That would be the years 1992 to 1997, correct?

That time period is right after the 1990 closure after a significant time period when they were almost fished into extinction per these graphs below. Note - the post closure fishing is recreational catch and release fishing. Of course goliath populations are "much greater" than that time period. The base period you should be looking at is further back in time.

It seems as though many of your recent arguments for the goliath take involves a logic fallacy called:

Argumentum ad populum (which is to appeal to widespread belief, bandwagon argument, appeal to the majority, appeal to the people) – where a proposition is claimed to be true or good solely because many people believe it to be so.

For example, you seem to argue mercury is not a significant issue, the number of goliaths today means they have recovered, thinning the herd is resultant behavior from not opened to this take, goliaths are eating x, y and z and so forth on and on.

These may be popular beliefs about goliath grouper, but are not the scientific truth.

I thought you knew better.

Tony]
No one else here is using a Argumentum ad populum other then you. You have stated over and over how mercury should be avoided even in low amounts (a popular belief), and I countless times asked you to provide proof on the dangers of low to medium levels of mercury in fish. Something you countless times have avoided proving.
The dangers of mercury in fish is something that everyone believes in and is scared of but I have yet to see the dangers of it in a grown adult male from low doses.

Still waiting on your reply to my questions. If you are afraid to answer then man up and say so and ill leave you alone. But since you said you aren't ignoring me then ill be still waiting for a reply on my two simple questions.

1. Are you now going to stop eating any species of fish which has any chance of having a 3ppm or greater mercury level? (This includes cobia, black grouper, tuna, mackerel, etc)

2. Can you provide any health effects to a grown adult male from eating a couple serving of a fish that has 3ppm or higher mercury levels?
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Old 11-16-2017, 06:32 AM   #58
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Re: Goliath grouper workshops scheduled in Florida from July 31, 2017 to October 18,

For those that have not seen to much on how bad mercury is for you---even with just in a Goliath or Cobia steak...or with a few mercury laden fillings in your mouth from a Dentist that did not know better....read the attached pdf...
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Old 11-16-2017, 06:44 AM   #59
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Re: Goliath grouper workshops scheduled in Florida from July 31, 2017 to October 18,

From a Mercola article... ( from https://articles.mercola.com/sites/a...-on-drugs.aspx )

Pollution has rendered many sources of seafood unsafe to eat, and a major problem is the combustion in power plants of coal containing mercury.

Mercury pollution from coal-fired power plants and other sources moves through the air and is deposited in water and finds its way into fish, accumulating especially in fish that are higher up the food chain.

( I highlighted the Coal Power Plant phrase...because once upon a time, the Goliaths did NOT have the high mercury levels they do now. We know this because they used to live almost twice as long, without lesions from mercury poisoning on their liver and other organs....Whether caused by FPL , which deposited soot and pollutants on all of Palm beach for decades...or so many Dentists in Palm Beach discharging mercury into their waste-water from silver amalgam filling use --or our agricultural pollution...dangerous changes have come to the ocean ecosystems of South Florida. Denial is not the answer. Dealing with it is.)

Fish like tuna, marlin, shark, barracuda, and swordfish have some of the highest levels of contamination. Further, according to a U.S. Geological Survey study, mercury contamination was detected in EVERY fish sampled in nearly 300 streams across the U.S.

More than one-quarter of these fish contained mercury at levels exceeding the EPA criterion for the protection of human health. Up to 90 percent of the organic mercury in fish and shellfish is methylmercury, which is the most dangerous form.6

Methylmercury harms your nervous system to differing degrees depending on how much mercury you've accumulated.

At above average doses, brain functions such as reaction time, judgment, and language can be impaired. At very high exposures, mercury can affect your ability to walk, speak, think, and see clearly.

A 2012 study that evaluated the effects of mercury on cognition in otherwise healthy adults found that those with blood mercury levels below 5 g/L had the best cognitive functions.7 Mild impairment was evident at blood mercury levels of 5 to 15 g/L and above 15 g/L, cognition was significantly impaired.

The risks are even steeper for children and pregnant women, the latter of whom suffer higher rates of miscarriage and birth defects if they eat mercury-contaminated seafood, even if the woman does not appear to be poisoned. Eating mercury-contaminated food may even alter human chromosomes.8,9
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Old 11-16-2017, 08:58 AM   #60
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Re: Goliath grouper workshops scheduled in Florida from July 31, 2017 to October 18,

Quote:
Originally Posted by danvolker View Post
From a Mercola article... ( from https://articles.mercola.com/sites/a...-on-drugs.aspx )

Pollution has rendered many sources of seafood unsafe to eat, and a major problem is the combustion in power plants of coal containing mercury.

Mercury pollution from coal-fired power plants and other sources moves through the air and is deposited in water and finds its way into fish, accumulating especially in fish that are higher up the food chain.

( I highlighted the Coal Power Plant phrase...because once upon a time, the Goliaths did NOT have the high mercury levels they do now. We know this because they used to live almost twice as long, without lesions from mercury poisoning on their liver and other organs....Whether caused by FPL , which deposited soot and pollutants on all of Palm beach for decades...or so many Dentists in Palm Beach discharging mercury into their waste-water from silver amalgam filling use --or our agricultural pollution...dangerous changes have come to the ocean ecosystems of South Florida. Denial is not the answer. Dealing with it is.)

Fish like tuna, marlin, shark, barracuda, and swordfish have some of the highest levels of contamination. Further, according to a U.S. Geological Survey study, mercury contamination was detected in EVERY fish sampled in nearly 300 streams across the U.S.

More than one-quarter of these fish contained mercury at levels exceeding the EPA criterion for the protection of human health. Up to 90 percent of the organic mercury in fish and shellfish is methylmercury, which is the most dangerous form.6

Methylmercury harms your nervous system to differing degrees depending on how much mercury you've accumulated.

At above average doses, brain functions such as reaction time, judgment, and language can be impaired. At very high exposures, mercury can affect your ability to walk, speak, think, and see clearly.

A 2012 study that evaluated the effects of mercury on cognition in otherwise healthy adults found that those with blood mercury levels below 5 g/L had the best cognitive functions.7 Mild impairment was evident at blood mercury levels of 5 to 15 g/L and above 15 g/L, cognition was significantly impaired.

The risks are even steeper for children and pregnant women, the latter of whom suffer higher rates of miscarriage and birth defects if they eat mercury-contaminated seafood, even if the woman does not appear to be poisoned. Eating mercury-contaminated food may even alter human chromosomes.8,9
Thank you very much. This is what I wanted to see. Now we have to find research to answer the other question, how much fish is enough to raise your mercury levels above 7ug/L?

As I stated before, plenty of spearos target and eat cobia, black grouper, etc, which some have very high levels of mercury (4ppm). Although its difficult to determine memory loss without a controlled test. So if eating 1-2 black grouper/cobia a year is enough to cause memory problems then this is a serious problem.
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