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All About Guns What's your weapon of choice, and why? Discuss the beloved speargun here!

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Old 08-17-2019, 09:47 AM   #166
PigStikr
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Re: Trigger Mechanism Design Rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by spearq8 View Post
… trying a more powerful load will not give you any velocity gain as the low handle will cause the gun muzzle to lift up too much and you will end up with less power if you push the bands hard. I know that as I tried to maximize performance on my Abbiller guns.
My gun is lengthened and I attached side stocks weighted with lead. Also added a semi-enclosed track. This mod combined with firmly restraining the stock extension from rearward travel results in negligible jump - the spear hits maybe a couple inches low with very high power.
Quote:
I did take apart the trigger of an Abbiller gun to service it a while back … and was pretty surprised to see that the sears were cut out of just 2.5mm plate !!!
That's pretty scary.
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Old 08-17-2019, 04:48 PM   #167
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Re: Trigger Mechanism Design Rules

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My gun is lengthened and I attached side stocks weighted with lead. Also added a semi-enclosed track. This mod combined with firmly restraining the stock extension from rearward travel results in negligible jump - the spear hits maybe a couple inches low with very high power.
That's pretty scary.
The Biller is designed to do a certain job and the levers are adequate for the task required on what is basically a light to medium gun. It is only scary if you don't understand why it is built that way. That family of guns has been around since the late sixties as a Sea Hornet which the US manufactured Biller is based on. They are made to an affordable price unlike say a C4 Carbon which can cost over a grand. A lot depends on what you want to do with it, if you need a more powerful gun then you buy another gun.

I have about 5 guns for different jobs, although the gun rack contains a few more than that. Too many guns and your shooting goes off as practice makes perfect when you put the time in on different guns. For target practice I shoot fish as I don’t have access to a pool.

Last edited by popgun pete; 08-17-2019 at 04:56 PM.
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Old 08-18-2019, 03:22 AM   #168
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Re: Trigger Mechanism Design Rules

The Abbiller guns are perfect if used as setup by factory. I have bought and owned over 20 Abbiller guns and I have one Teak Ltd. 60" that has more fish caught with it than all of my other guns combined. Those were the best guns at the time (about 25 years ago) and fish were much more plentiful and easier to get close to. Of course those guns have limitations and like everything else, things improve incrementally and those increments add up to quite a lot. I have seen quite a few people try and push their Abbiller guns to match today's high performance setups … but that is dangerous and will not get you anywhere. In my testing, I was only able to gain about 10% or 20% over the default factory setups ... and even then that caused a heavier trigger pull and problems with slide ring lodging in the slide ring stopper. When I took the trigger apart I realized that it was already setup at max and should not be pushed harder. The Abbiller guns will still catch plenty of fish and even today I can see myself using one if I would scuba dive oil rigs and use Kevlar line (with slide ring you have zero band tangles no matter what line you use) … but for freediving in relatively clear water, where you need high accuracy and very fast flat shooting shafts … you are going to be severely handicapped.
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Old 08-18-2019, 04:25 PM   #169
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Re: Trigger Mechanism Design Rules

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The Abbiller guns are perfect if used as setup by factory. I have bought and owned over 20 Abbiller guns and I have one Teak Ltd. 60" that has more fish caught with it than all of my other guns combined. Those were the best guns at the time (about 25 years ago) and fish were much more plentiful and easier to get close to. Of course those guns have limitations and like everything else, things improve incrementally and those increments add up to quite a lot. I have seen quite a few people try and push their Abbiller guns to match today's high performance setups … but that is dangerous and will not get you anywhere. In my testing, I was only able to gain about 10% or 20% over the default factory setups ... and even then that caused a heavier trigger pull and problems with slide ring lodging in the slide ring stopper. When I took the trigger apart I realized that it was already setup at max and should not be pushed harder. The Abbiller guns will still catch plenty of fish and even today I can see myself using one if I would scuba dive oil rigs and use Kevlar line (with slide ring you have zero band tangles no matter what line you use) … but for freediving in relatively clear water, where you need high accuracy and very fast flat shooting shafts … you are going to be severely handicapped.
Maybe that last sentence would be of interest to Spear One (Kevin) as he sold his “Ocean Rhino” guns in Florida for lineshafting and freeshafting that were based on the “Sea Hornet” guns, but with his own spears and rigging, plus an optional long Professional muzzle of his own design. The reason that he had to create his own “Ocean Rhino” gun was when “Sea Hornet”, in a very bad business decision, decided to hand exclusive distribution in the USA to TUSA who had no clues on spearfishing and the enterprise subsequently collapsed.

The "Sea Hornet" mech, in its original form, was invented by Wally Gibbins for his own shoulder gun that was powered by two 3/4" bands and later in slimmed down form was the basis for the mass produced "Sea Hornet".

As for shooting line tangles the line running back to the shaft tab or shaft cross drilling means that the line has to double up on itself as the spear tail reaches the muzzle. The longer that loop is, which can be nearly the length of the spear, it can then potentially lasso gun elements on the way out of the gun.
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Last edited by popgun pete; 08-18-2019 at 04:49 PM. Reason: more info
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Old 08-21-2019, 10:32 AM   #170
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Re: Trigger Mechanism Design Rules

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I have seen quite a few people try and push their Abbiller guns to match today's high performance setups … but that is dangerous and will not get you anywhere. In my testing, I was only able to gain about 10% or 20% over the default factory setups ... and even then that caused a heavier trigger pull and problems with slide ring lodging in the slide ring stopper. When I took the trigger apart I realized that it was already setup at max and should not be pushed harder.
You apparently were trying to put more band tension on the trigger mech. Making the speargun longer will get more velocity without putting more band tension on the trigger mech if the bands are sized accordingly, but will give much more power. A dragster will be going much faster at 1/4 mile than at 200 yds, more time to accelerate. The other huge loss with rubber guns is that the last foot or two of spear travel gets you nothing, as the bands are relaxed completely. Thus a longer gun gets you much more 'active' band acceleration distance.
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Old 09-14-2019, 01:22 AM   #171
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Re: Trigger Mechanism Design Rules

Popgun: So what would you consider to be the optimum design goals of a speargun trigger, in order of importance?
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Old 09-14-2019, 03:00 AM   #172
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Re: Trigger Mechanism Design Rules

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Popgun: So what would you consider to be the optimum design goals of a speargun trigger, in order of importance?
Reliability, consistent smooth pull, light enough that it is not a hair trigger, but not so firm that you tend to twist the gun around when you pull the trigger.
If it gets gunk in it (sand, marine detritus) then brandishing the gun through the water by holding the front end of the gun a few times gets it out, preferably not ever pointing the business end at yourself and for safety unhook the bands first. Drop a loaded gun on a sandy wave washed bottom and you will know what I am talking about. In the worst cases I had to take the gun apart later and on the day grab another gun. Always have a second gun.
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Old 09-16-2019, 09:21 AM   #173
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Re: Trigger Mechanism Design Rules

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Reliability, consistent smooth pull, light enough that it is not a hair trigger, but not so firm that you tend to twist the gun around when you pull the trigger....
Absolutely spot on... I think it couldn't be described in a better way.

I recently shortened the bands in a Bucanero II gun (inverted mech, all metal) and noticed how the trigger got much harder to pull... accuracy goes out the window...
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Old 09-30-2019, 05:50 PM   #174
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Re: Trigger Mechanism Design Rules

For interest the Omer "Invictus" reverse trigger mechanism which has been squeezed into the maximum space in the handle, the sear pivot pin just making it into the rear of the grip molding envelope.
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Old 11-25-2019, 08:19 AM   #175
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Re: Trigger Mechanism Design Rules

Just had a look at the latest iteration of the Rob Allen "Vecta" trigger. The sliding safety is now more discriminating as it blocks further away from the trigger pivot pin. The sear lever cannot over rotate and bust the bottom of the trigger off because a zig-zag element hits a stop located in front of the sear lever pivot pin first. The trigger is molded acetyl with kevlar reinforcement.
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Last edited by popgun pete; 11-27-2019 at 04:36 PM.
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Old 11-28-2019, 03:50 PM   #176
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Re: Trigger Mechanism Design Rules

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Originally Posted by popgun pete View Post
For interest the Omer "Invictus" reverse trigger mechanism which has been squeezed into the maximum space in the handle, the sear pivot pin just making it into the rear of the grip molding envelope.
The Invictus trigger mechanism has a stainless steel cassette that extends the length of the grip frame. Hopefully the cassette walls run all the way down and it is not just a roof! The diagram shown earlier just shows the levers and the spear.

P.S. Found an image of what was available as a spare part, so here is the answer.
https://www.scubastore.com/scuba-div...er/137106648/p
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Last edited by popgun pete; 11-28-2019 at 04:09 PM.
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Old 12-16-2019, 10:21 AM   #177
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Trigger Mechanism Design Rules

@Popgun Pete
I would love to see you discuss the (very long) reverse trigger that is installed on Seals 130 gun you bought!

It is located so far back that it almost reminds me of a remote trigger you find on mid-handles.

I suppose we could decrease overall speargun length by elongating the trigger sear even more and having the spear end going all the way back into the loading butt. It will make loading hot bands more challenging but it would still be possible with the under-the-leg-loading-technique.



With the understanding of trigger physics combined with a nice double roller design I could envision some gains in overall length.



Anyway please discuss the trigger including pictures once you have received the gun. I would certainly appreciate your effort.

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Old 12-16-2019, 12:04 PM   #178
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Re: Trigger Mechanism Design Rules

My take on extremely long triggers is that they don't make much sense if you chest load... My thinking is that each of us has a minimum distance we need from rear-most fin to the loading butt in order to actually be able to load the gun. For me, without years of band gun experience, it's around 6 inches or 15cm with hot bands.
And this means that if I build a gun, I can just go for the shortest Ermes roller and move the position of it in the blank such that I hit those 15cm - so that I can load the gun. In the case of a 15cm "limit", the handle would still end up a fair bit in front of the loading butt so the overall length of the gun stays the same, no disadvantage from a short trigger there. BUT short triggers also have the advantage that you can place the whole mech "inside" the grip and really raise your hand very high up into the stock. Just look at a C4 which might have the highest handle/grip position out there and that gun actually has a very short trigger.
As for Seal's gun above, in my eyes the main feature of that extremely long trigger is indeed that the handle moves forward a fair bit. But I would think it's much easier building a well-functioning trigger the shorter the trigger is, so not sure having a rear+ handle position makes up for the (assumed) increase in potential trigger issues.

Last edited by Diving Gecko; 12-17-2019 at 10:01 AM.
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Old 12-16-2019, 03:22 PM   #179
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Re: Trigger Mechanism Design Rules

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Originally Posted by kodama View Post
@Popgun Pete
I would love to see you discuss the (very long) reverse trigger that is installed on Seals 130 gun you bought!

It is located so far back that it almost reminds me of a remote trigger you find on mid-handles.

I suppose we could decrease overall speargun length by elongating the trigger sear even more and having the spear end going all the way back into the loading butt. It will make loading hot bands more challenging but it would still be possible with the under-the-leg-loading-technique.



With the understanding of trigger physics combined with a nice double roller design I could envision some gains in overall length.



Anyway please discuss the trigger including pictures once you have received the gun. I would certainly appreciate your effort.

I will take a look at it, but trigger mechanisms don't need to be too long in order to have good gearing. Flat or shallow trigger mechanisms allow a high placed hand grip and the gun stock above the trigger can then be very slim, but overdo it and the gun will break as the rear end cantilevers upwards under the band pull and snaps the gun in two. C4 have buried their trigger mechanism in the grip handle space so that it is relatively short.

DG is right, if you push the spear tail latching point too far back then the gun becomes harder to load as your hands are too close to your body as you drop the wishbone in. Spearfishermen are all shapes and sizes, they are not peas in a pod and nor are their guns if they optimize their design for their own purposes. If I want a longer wishbone draw then I make the gun longer rather than swap out the trigger mechanism for a reverse mech. Longer projectiles increase striking power down range and aiming estimation errors are decreased, so conditions and prey require a variety of weapons as ideally you want to stop your victim in its tracks whenever you find it offering a good shot opportunity.
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Old 12-16-2019, 10:42 PM   #180
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Re: Trigger Mechanism Design Rules

Although a bit more metalwork is involved a reverse trigger mech with a floor under the spear tail would be an improvement and a slightly longer sear box roof, that way the sear lever tooth pulling out from the spear tail notch cannot move the tail around or make it hop out of the mechanism’s throat. If you never use the rearmost spear tail attachment hole then a more enclosed mouth can be realised, particularly with tabbed shafts. That rectangular mouth on euroguns is a throwback to the time when the stop lugs for line slides were at the rear end of the shaft, which under some circumstances caused the tail to be snapped off at the wishbone notches when something large was attempting to escape.
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