Home Tournaments Calendar Weather Merchandise Sponsors

Go Back   Spearboard.com - The World's Largest Spearfishing Diving Boating Social Media Forum > General Topics (Non-regional) > Spearfishing Regulations

Spearfishing Regulations This area is for the topic of existing or proposed Spearfishing Regulations.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 11-27-2016, 08:44 AM   #16
RichT
Rich Taylor
 
RichT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: St. Petersburg, FL
Posts: 3,066
Re: Hogfish

Hogfish have been studied extensively by really good scientists and not people with an agenda FYI. In fact... a lot of really good spearfisherman have/have been collecting the data for these scientist for many years.
I should know as I was one of them!

I would ask people to take a few minutes to get familiar with the multiple scientific papers from many different sources that say hogfish in certain locations are in serious trouble.
And FYI, they don't just study hogfish by asking people what they caught!
They look at a variety of factors that include age,growth,fecundity, as well as population dynamics.

Like Kenny said, part of the problem is perception. Many people who have been shooting in the Keys and South Florida have no idea what it was like 20+ years ago.

Hell... I stopped going to the keys 20 years ago because it was already shot out then compared to what it was when I was younger!
And when I was younger the guys who were older than me said it was nothing compared to when they were younger!
Now... think about the huge population boom South Florida has seen in the last 30 years and think about how modern electronics have completely changed the game.

Nobody likes more regulation but something needs to be done unfortunately...
RichT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2016, 06:09 PM   #17
Fins369
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Squan
Age: 36
Posts: 134
Re: Hogfish

Quote:
Originally Posted by slowboat View Post
Hogfish Closed Recreationally Now , as of Wednesday.

Happy ? This is what cooperating with FWC biologists and fish counters will get you .

They count or survey your catch , extrapolate that number with an algebraic logarithm,

take that number , speculate how many people might have gone fishing and come up

with a estimate that is wildly assumptive and shut down the fishery based on inaccurate

information. That is why after Wednesday , recreational hogfish will be shut down .

NEVER let them survey or count your catch , you are only shooting yourself in the foot.

They will take your information , skew , distort , and lie . Then you get 10 years of no

harvest , the bean counter who talked to you on the dock still gets paid , by your taxes

while you get yanked.

Don't bitch about it here , contact FWC Commissioners @ myfwc .com ,

contact Jessica McCawley , head of fisheries management also.

demand accurate fish counts , not the speculative , random , guesses they use now.

Time for me to get the boat , ice it and harvest ; later.

Where did you see that it is shut down? The FWC web site still does not list a date on when they are going to implement the open/closed season.
Fins369 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2016, 06:15 PM   #18
kwyoungspear
Registered User
 
kwyoungspear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Northern Michigan/Key West
Posts: 568
Re: Hogfish

http://sero.nmfs.noaa.gov/fishery_bulletins/

Lobster Lee is right on this one
__________________
kwyoungspear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2016, 06:38 PM   #19
Fins369
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Squan
Age: 36
Posts: 134
Re: Hogfish

Thats just for federal waters...

Appreciate the information though.
Fins369 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2016, 08:38 AM   #20
slowboat
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Key West
Posts: 277
Re: Hogfish

20 % of the sites studied were on bottom that held 0 zero fish ,
the mud in Hawks Channel was a favorite site to look for hogs .
I read the study , discussed it at length with FWCC , Erica Burgess being one .
The study was skewed , from the start , based on an agenda from Jerry Ault ,
aka "biologist of doom" who couldn't find fish 20 years ago.
I have fished the Keys for over 30 years and where I fish , the populations are
thriving and healthy . FWC chose not to look in those areas .
The problem starts with classifying hogfish as "reef fish" .
They are not "reef " fish , they prefer inshore areas with current , hard bottom adjacent
to grass . That is where their consistent food sources are .
Find the food , find the fish .
My commercial landings are documented , and I have a VMS tracking device ,
100 lbs of fat Gulf species hogs in 3 hours can be verified repeatedly,, and that is by myself , 95% of the time.
Best day was 330 lbs in 15 ft of water, went back to the same area and did 175 lbs the next day . Those were full day trips by myself.
100 lbs a day is common for me in a 3-4 hour tide change. Consistently , for years.
Funny how the quota was filled while the wind was howling out of the east for all of October and most of November when few harvesters even went out , and landings were down . My spots were blown out with little to no visibility from wind and the crappy green algae water .
Does that mean there were no hogs there ? No, it just means I could not see them .
That is plain logic .
Now on the reverse side of the coin ,FWC biologists look at it differently , they believe that those unseen fish don't exist , if you don't land them , they infer there weren't any.
If you land a decent cooler , you overfished them . Their glass is always half empty.

FWCC own statistics verify that the highest landings occur during July/August (mini season)
but refuse to control that harvest.
Other posters have stated this also , and I feel it is a fact . 50,000 people came to the Keys during mini season and were "consumptive users", meaning they harvested seafood.
How many people took their yellow pole spears and shot and released how many hogs ?
Not just hogs but groupers , triggers , grunts , snappers and anything not moving fast enough die, only to be discarded since they weren't big enough .
Multiple trips ,( I help fill tanks at a local shop ) I fill your tanks how many times a day ?
Addressing that elephant in the room would take care of a lot of the problem .
The simple measure of shutting down hogs for the 2 weeks before and after mini season
probably would have taken care of the whole problem.
But instead , the 16 inch limit will create a massive throwback ratio during this time period. Actually making things worse .
Bad science , bad regulations , which still allow the least experienced harvesters to continue shooting fish they can't keep.
It would be very interesting to find out just how many fiberglass polespears are purchased each year .
We understand the lack of experience is that common denominator , and those dedicated to the activity will purchase better gear and become more proficient , reducing the throwback ratio on an individual basis . This group (you) end up suffering as a result of the pole spear users.
Another glaring mistake is by FWC is not being able to determine when hogfish spawn ?
So you get an 7 month closure ?
I have got to say sarcastically , Really ? Maybe if they ask someone who has landings when it happens , after all I gut about 500 lbs a week , a harvester might know .
This alone tells me FWCC has insufficient data to make a valid determination regarding seasons.

Might not be the same for your area , I can only speak confidently for west of Key West;
let me leave you with this thought :
knowing where not to fish is just as important as knowing where to fish.
slowboat is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2016, 12:49 PM   #21
skinneej
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 406
Re: Hogfish

Hogfish in the keys is one of the best examples of "growth overfishing" there is (e.g. as soon as it's legal, it's dead). It's not hard to see that the "typical" harvested fish is barely above legal limit. 16" is not a bad size limit for the keys, but it should have been stepped in over a period of years (i.e. 13" for a year, then 14" for a year, etc...)
skinneej is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2016, 04:16 PM   #22
slowboat
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Key West
Posts: 277
Re: Hogfish

That may be true as you go from west to east in the Keys and interaction and contact with divers becomes more frequent , increasing the chance of said hogfish being harvested .
Since a few people are on the west end of that migration pattern , we see those fish first ,
and theoretically pick off the big ones first.
Larger fish are not a problem west of key west .
but according to that logic , New Ground should produce dinosaur hogs . but , realistically
doesn't have hogs any bigger than ones I get in the shadow of the cruise ship.
Yet , there are schools of 10 " hogs there along side a school of 18" hogs.
just like inshore here in Key West.
At what point geographically is all this impact occurring ?
At what point do those hogfish from the northwestern Gulf cross over and head east toward Miami ?
Personally I don't think all hogfish fit the "mold" of what potential hogfish growth "could" be.
Like people , we are people , short , tall , fat, thin , all body types .
we are not all the perfect human body , or attain an ideal physique .
Aren't fish the same ? You are what your genes provide , fish or human.
So , perhaps we have an unrealistic expectation of what the fishery should be , based on an idealized biomass.
Remember it takes a lot of crabs , shrimp and shellfish , and urchins to support a healthy population.
Also a healthy soft coral base and purple sea fan forest ,
which means we need clean water , not the algae runoff from upstream.
It' s a band aid on a gaping wound.
slowboat is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2016, 05:17 PM   #23
Impaler Spearguns
Sponsor
 
Impaler Spearguns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: key west
Posts: 730
Re: Hogfish

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmoose View Post
Doesn't the new restrictions help reduce the mini season mass hog killing? How is it ignored?

What basis of science are you using to make your recommendations and why is yours any different than theirs?

You know that if a size and take restriction is not chosen the alternative will be an MPA... I believe there is considerable Federal interest in making the whole Keys an MPA like Pennekamp. The state not taking action preemptively as it has would certainly help grease the skids to make that happen.

sorry for the delayed response - I just saw this:
the mini season thing is ignored in that: they ONLY needed to shut down the mini season massacre and maybe raise the size limit and that's it- 90% of the problem is solved. They "ignored" it- by making everyone suffer all year long instead of just stopping the one week massacre

The basis of science that I used that they didn't is that - I commercially fished this area for years - and even thogh I wasn't carrying a clipboard and doing "studies" - I was fishing for the hogs where they actual;ly lived instaed of what these guys did- which was to go to places where everything has been ovefished for decades and no one fishes there- plus stand around at the filet tables at the public boat ramp and ask all the newbies and weekend warriors what they got and where they got it. If you are putting in your boat at a public boat ramp- you are likely not from the area - and not an expert at where the big fish live.

as to your last point that it's either they do THIS or we get the whole are shut down to an MPA. I don't know who it was who decided that there were only two possible choices and neither of them could even utter the words mini season. - I would suggest that there are morwe choices than that- more than 2 nmore than 3 - in fact - if they really were trying to solve the problem- there are dozens of choices- the idea that there are only two choices or they just take it all away forever is not smart - not science- and not true.
The people who come down here on mini season and fill the cooler with 11" hogs and mini lobsters and then drive back to miami are the problem - but the long history of corruption in key west dictates that the sellers of pole spears - lobster sticks and bags and hotel room owners are what is important - not the fish- and THAT is what needs to change. All that happens now is - they STILL kill the hogs - its just now they either filet and release or just release.

The people that live here should be allowed to continue to harvest and should be given powers to vote on this stuff. The people who just come and visit or drive down to kill stuff and then go back to pennsyltucky and their ilk- shouldnt have any say in any of this. Do I get to vote on their roads and bridges? do I get a say on their school board meetings ? no- and that's because I don't live there. It just sucks to live in a place where people come to visit - kill stuff and then leave us with heavy handed laws to make up for what they are doing.
just my opinion
__________________
Impaler Spearguns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2016, 05:53 PM   #24
kmoose
Team Headhunter
 
kmoose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Slowcala, FL
Age: 52
Posts: 3,825
Re: Hogfish

Quote:
Originally Posted by Impaler Spearguns View Post
sorry for the delayed response - I just saw this:
the mini season thing is ignored in that: they ONLY needed to shut down the mini season massacre and maybe raise the size limit and that's it- 90% of the problem is solved. They "ignored" it- by making everyone suffer all year long instead of just stopping the one week massacre

The basis of science that I used that they didn't is that - I commercially fished this area for years - and even thogh I wasn't carrying a clipboard and doing "studies" - I was fishing for the hogs where they actual;ly lived instaed of what these guys did- which was to go to places where everything has been ovefished for decades and no one fishes there- plus stand around at the filet tables at the public boat ramp and ask all the newbies and weekend warriors what they got and where they got it. If you are putting in your boat at a public boat ramp- you are likely not from the area - and not an expert at where the big fish live.

as to your last point that it's either they do THIS or we get the whole are shut down to an MPA. I don't know who it was who decided that there were only two possible choices and neither of them could even utter the words mini season. - I would suggest that there are morwe choices than that- more than 2 nmore than 3 - in fact - if they really were trying to solve the problem- there are dozens of choices- the idea that there are only two choices or they just take it all away forever is not smart - not science- and not true.
The people who come down here on mini season and fill the cooler with 11" hogs and mini lobsters and then drive back to miami are the problem - but the long history of corruption in key west dictates that the sellers of pole spears - lobster sticks and bags and hotel room owners are what is important - not the fish- and THAT is what needs to change. All that happens now is - they STILL kill the hogs - its just now they either filet and release or just release.

The people that live here should be allowed to continue to harvest and should be given powers to vote on this stuff. The people who just come and visit or drive down to kill stuff and then go back to pennsyltucky and their ilk- shouldnt have any say in any of this. Do I get to vote on their roads and bridges? do I get a say on their school board meetings ? no- and that's because I don't live there. It just sucks to live in a place where people come to visit - kill stuff and then leave us with heavy handed laws to make up for what they are doing.
just my opinion
If the fish you harvested and sold only were sold to Conchs you would have a basis to your argument but without tourism and an out of Keys market for your fish it kind of falls flat. There is a price to pay when tourism drives over 90% of your community's income and the resources you want to keep for yourself drive that ratio.

There are great advantages living where you do but it will never be run as an isolationist nation where locals don't drive the economy. The lower Keys ARE Florida and not the Conch Republic so that is the way it will be, like it or not, right or wrong.
__________________
The Moose is Loose !
"SUPER SPORTY"
kmoose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2016, 06:03 PM   #25
kmoose
Team Headhunter
 
kmoose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Slowcala, FL
Age: 52
Posts: 3,825
Re: Hogfish

Quote:
Originally Posted by slowboat View Post
That may be true as you go from west to east in the Keys and interaction and contact with divers becomes more frequent , increasing the chance of said hogfish being harvested .
Since a few people are on the west end of that migration pattern , we see those fish first ,
and theoretically pick off the big ones first.
Larger fish are not a problem west of key west .
but according to that logic , New Ground should produce dinosaur hogs . but , realistically
doesn't have hogs any bigger than ones I get in the shadow of the cruise ship.
Yet , there are schools of 10 " hogs there along side a school of 18" hogs.
just like inshore here in Key West.
At what point geographically is all this impact occurring ?
At what point do those hogfish from the northwestern Gulf cross over and head east toward Miami ?
Personally I don't think all hogfish fit the "mold" of what potential hogfish growth "could" be.
Like people , we are people , short , tall , fat, thin , all body types .
we are not all the perfect human body , or attain an ideal physique .
Aren't fish the same ? You are what your genes provide , fish or human.
So , perhaps we have an unrealistic expectation of what the fishery should be , based on an idealized biomass.
Remember it takes a lot of crabs , shrimp and shellfish , and urchins to support a healthy population.
Also a healthy soft coral base and purple sea fan forest ,
which means we need clean water , not the algae runoff from upstream.
It' s a band aid on a gaping wound.
Couldn't agree more. The inshore hogs vs offshore central gulf hogs seem to be of different genetic makeup. Unfortunately genetic testing and historic size evidence like I posted says otherwise. I'm still kind of stumped by it as the phenomenon still points to over harvest.
__________________
The Moose is Loose !
"SUPER SPORTY"
kmoose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2016, 06:21 PM   #26
Johnoly
Big Time Bug Hunter
 
Johnoly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Orlando
Posts: 3,029
Re: Hogfish

Quote:
Originally Posted by Impaler Spearguns View Post
..... I don't know who it was who decided that there were only two possible choices.....
Not only that, the original rebuilding plan & specs was a 5 year rebuilding plan and then they would slowly open up the season dates further. The 'new' plan specs is now a 10 year rebuilding plan. They won't even look at landings numbers until 2026. We know who pushed that one thru.
__________________
1st shot is the only shot!
Johnoly is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2016, 07:30 PM   #27
Impaler Spearguns
Sponsor
 
Impaler Spearguns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: key west
Posts: 730
Re: Hogfish

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmoose View Post
If the fish you harvested and sold only were sold to Conchs you would have a basis to your argument but without tourism and an out of Keys market for your fish it kind of falls flat. There is a price to pay when tourism drives over 90% of your community's income and the resources you want to keep for yourself drive that ratio.

There are great advantages living where you do but it will never be run as an isolationist nation where locals don't drive the economy. The lower Keys ARE Florida and not the Conch Republic so that is the way it will be, like it or not, right or wrong.
there actually isn't enough hogfish harvested in the keys to even service the restaurants we have here. When I was commercially fishing- we had the wholesale license- so we sold to the restaurants locally - not shipping it up to miami and beyond.- one company - that owns 5 big restaurants here buy frozen hogfish from mexico because they cant get enouigh locally- plus its cheaper. even the Hogfish bar and grill gets most of his hog from mexico. You are right - in that - like it or not - most of us conchs are dependent upon the tourists- but not nearly as much as most people think.
but if we have an issue with hogfish and it's the out of towners causing 90% of the problem - they should get a free pass because they paid for a hotel room?- ? really?
I don't agree with that - the keys hogfish population needs some regulations but they ignore the mini season offenders because they spend money.
So - the idea is that the miami crowd won't come if they had a mini closed hogfish season? I don't believe that is the case.
The tourists that bring money here to spend - most of that money ends up in the hands of out of town companies that own those hotels..

The trut is that we will never know for sure WHO kills all the babay hogs - because they don't do any studies to find out - they just make knee jerk laws and the "they" in that equasion don't live here either.
The local spearos know who is leaving all those 10" hogs floating around all the baby coral heads in 10 ft of water during mini season. What this new law did - is now it's going to be 14" hogs floating in hawks channel during that week.
Mini season is a mess and the money it brings IN to thwe keys - 95% of it goes right back out of the keys and into the bank accounts of the people who own those giant hotels and most of the restaurants- people from the northeast mostly.
I guess there really is no point in talking about it any way.
They pass these laws and do whatever they like. they pretend to do studies but when you take a close look at the "studies" they did - you realize it's mostly a joke. - this is just a race - "they" want to make the whole keys a sanctuary to save all the fish. Then they just bring in hogfish frozen in a box from third wqorld- along with little tiny lobsters- all from places with no pesky regulations. Like when the Chinese start fishing the bahamas next year- that's fine- as long as we protect the keys. We can just let the poor people kill all their fish - box em up and ship em to us. To me - that is a ridiculous soulution- that's like new jersey making some clean air laws and closing down factories - that just get moved to new york and pennsylvania- great answer- problem solved.
__________________
Impaler Spearguns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2016, 11:20 PM   #28
skinneej
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 406
Re: Hogfish

Quote:
Originally Posted by Impaler Spearguns View Post
The local spearos know who is leaving all those 10" hogs floating around all the baby coral heads in 10 ft of water during mini season. What this new law did - is now it's going to be 14" hogs floating in hawks channel during that week.
.
Wouldn't that be better?
skinneej is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2016, 05:43 AM   #29
Keysdivers
keysdivers
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Marathon,Florida Keys
Posts: 799
Re: Hogfish

Guys, it's too late to complain. Decision has been made.
This has been an issue for years and disregarded by all regulators.
Fact is ALL surveys and studies are targeted. In other words, they seek to justify the results they want. Reason for extended closures is to gaurantee employment of the "scientists".
The problem with defense is that the 1st thing that has to happen is there must be a coalition of free divers, scuba divers, recreational fishermen, commercial fishermen and the tourist industry. This does not exist and only when it does will we see our politians and "representitives" responsive
Keysdivers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2016, 07:35 AM   #30
100days-a-year
Seafood Sifu
 
100days-a-year's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Jax Fla
Age: 53
Posts: 3,704
Re: Hogfish

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keysdivers View Post
The problem with defense is that the 1st thing that has to happen is there must be a coalition of free divers, scuba divers, recreational fishermen, commercial fishermen and the tourist industry. This does not exist and only when it does will we see our politians and "representitives" responsive
http://www.sustainablefishing.org/

Other members and I are at just about every meeting up this way.We have commercial,recreational,charter fishermen as well as fish houses,tackle manufacturers and consumers donating.We're small but have been representing a fair use and sustainable practices for the last few years.Much of what I see at meetings is user groups throwing each other under the bus and asking for unrealistic changes.
100days-a-year is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:55 AM.


The World's Largest Spearfishing Diving Social Media Forum Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2002 - 2014 Spearboard.com