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2011 USOA National Championship Tavernier, FL Keys - August 3-4, 2011 The Under Water Society of America (USOA) has sanctioned the Miami Freedivers and the Longfins to host this prestigious event.

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Old 05-13-2011, 04:32 PM   #31
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Re: USOA National Spearfishing Championships 2011

So theres a lot of text here, what I gleaned from it is we need 2 things,

1: some points system to allow worlds competitive teams to compete in consecutive worlds or nationals competitions, Justin outlined a system that seemed pretty good to me, averaging their percentage points over the competitors last 2 nationals/worlds competitions

2. some monetary backing for worlds competitors, significant enough to sustain them between tourneys. Could this be accomplished by support from the USOA? I would be willing to add some to my USOA fees. Are there enough members that a $5 or $10 increase in club dues would support a team? And is there a way that sponsorship could be granted to "team USA" instead of individual people?

I'm just a local kid, so please excuse my lack of knowledge on the finer points of all this
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Old 05-13-2011, 09:41 PM   #32
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Re: USOA National Spearfishing Championships 2011

It seems that in order to assemble a multi-year team, you need a better national system of financial support. If the US can’t supply this kind of funding, then there seems to be less of a need to try to assemble a muti-year team (because who can swing THAT on their own)?

So which has to come first?.... the rule change or a significant increase in funding?.

I guess Brian’s answer that: “the continuity of a multi-year team will improve sponsorship and funding opportunities” is relevant here.

The real solution is to “build an organization”, but that is simple to say and very tough to execute.

I wish you the best.
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Old 05-13-2011, 10:25 PM   #33
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Re: USOA National Spearfishing Championships 2011

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Originally Posted by J.Allen View Post
As a competitor on the 2010 Worlds Team, I would like to give my respectful take on this. Bear with me, there is a lot to address here and I will give my proposal based on the reality of what we experienced in the 2010 worlds.

First, its really good to see people giving this issue attention. It shows that people care about having a strong representation on the world front. The important thing to remember here is THAT is what this is about- having the best possible US Team representing us in the greatest sport in the world. Leave your personal interests out of this.

That said, Adel eluded to a point which I suspect a few other people may believe as well- that proposals were fabricated so that we could personally stay on top.

Let this be known: I personally had no desire to represent in 2012, John might never do another tournament again after that experience, and Sean said jokingly at dinner one night that he’d rater stick a fork in his eye than do that again. Take that for what it is worth, we knew Croatia would be tough going in, but the point I’m getting at here is that the proposals had nothing to do with us personally, just the principle. Dan would have taken his shot at another go in 2012 though and deservedly so.


Anyway, here is the proposal I’m supporting:

(btw this has probable already been proposed)

Currently to qualify for the Worlds competitors must compete in 2 Nationals preceding the Worlds to receive their national ranking. Competitors points are credited in percentile points from each Nationals separately based on 100% being the top scoring individual in each Nationals and everyone else’s scores are a percentile relative. Awesome premise because “points” are awarded in the most deserved way i.e. when someone crushes the tournament like Murph in 03, he secures 100% while everyone is credited lower relative to that stand out catch. Additionally this eliminates the obvious issue of high scoring turnies one year vs low the next. I’ve always appreciated this method of ranking. (nothing new there)

Going forward, and this is real simple, the current US World Team should receive an average of their last two nationals percentile points in place of the Nationals scores coinciding with the year they participate in the Worlds.

If a World Team member choses to go to the Nationals on the year of the Worlds, whatever score they get, they get.

That’s it.

So now the why:

1)We need our US representatives to be focusing their time resources and efforts, as we did, on the Worlds.

Anyone who has done it knows the undertaking of that task, and unlike us who got a free pass through the Pan Ams due to lack of interest I guess, future teams will have the additional financial and time strain of the Pan Ams to deal with.

Going into the Worlds, Dennis, and everybody in the know in general, informed us on how much effort would be involved in this undertaking, particularly in Croatia. The fact was stressed that if we were going to do it right we would have to be there early. So we were. In fact we made the Worlds a full year commitment. Training in Greece being the most valuable. As for the diving with friends premise- hell yeah it was! (diving well as a cohesive team is important and takes time together) but more importantly it was a highly refined clinic put on by Dimitris Kollias and Stavros Kastrinakis specifically for hunting Med fish. These guys really took the time to break down every detail of their methods for hunting in a very professional way and we absorbed every bit of privileged knowledge which was immensely helpful for the Worlds. Anyone who reads DEEP knows the incredible level of detail these guys put into spearfishing. Rather than knock us for going to Greece instead of the Nationals, please consider our sincerest intentions to represent the country as best we could and the generous offers of those that helped us along the way (special shout out to Martin as well).

2)In the past, these proposals have been framed unfavorably by people saying we would be crediting World Team members with points they didn’t earn. I disagree. By the method suggested, the competitor’s focus is the Worlds and they get a representation of points which they did earn.

In 2010 for instance the top percentile points fell something like this (excluding Lance and Dennis who chose not to represent):

Justin Allen 185
Hollywood 153
Sean Moreshci 140
John Modica 139

cut those numbers in half and you’ve got their EARNED points they would be credited the year they dedicate their lives to the Worlds.

High earners have more points going into the following qualifying Nationals, low-lower. This is by no means a gimmie either for a return appearance to the Worlds, but that scenario would provide incentive for YOUR guys who have been busting their ass and given it their all, consequentially missing the Nationals, to show up for the next Nationals to get a shoot at qualifying again. The only thing that is being given is a better chance to represent in/focus on the Worlds. The credit, in terms of point representation, I argue would still have been earned.

3) Generally people make it to the Worlds with one very high score favored by homefield advantage. This proposal would eliminate that factor and thereby any complaints about that particular issue. Proposals which use one or the other previous National score do not eliminate that concern.


4) Lastly, we need to promote more repeat competitors on the world front to have a legitimate chance at being competitive consistently.

How many times does a new guy show up to an olympic event an win? In most cases that is what we have to hope happens with our US Team.

As a Team and regarding the individuals I competed with, I was tremendously proud of what we accomplished when the Worlds were over. I knew within the realm of safety we left everything out there and exhausted everything we had in an effort to compete. Thats what its all about! Results wise though, personally slightly disappointing only because I know, knowing what we know now, we could do significantly better with two weeks of preparation as compared to the two months we actually took. Its amazing what lessons can be reaped from one showing, but as seen from other countries, it takes a round 2,3,4 ect. for success to take hold on that level. THAT is what we need in the US. Lets promote a greater chance of making it happening.

We made a lot of friends while we were there from other countries and several laughed at us when we explained our Worlds qualification process. I’m not kidding literally laughed at us. Said we never stood a chance sending green competitors almost every time. Not that their way is superior, they vary greatly, but many countries contrive/accommodate a way so that the same competitors can compete year after year if they are worthy.

Yes it is a fact the Ernsts amongst others set the mold for what legends are this sport and succeeded in attending both the National and Worlds in the same year to qualify for consecutive Worlds. However I’m sure they can attest to great deal of financial/time constrains and burdens that must have imposed. Take a guy like Bill for instance in his prime (wow), lets say he was cut loose from being required to attend the Nationals the same year as the Worlds to qualify for the next Worlds. With potentially more of his efforts focused on the Worlds rater than the Nationals that year, might that have improved our chances of having two INDIVIDUAL WORLD CHAMPIONs to our country’s credit? Thats what these new ideas are about. This is a very demanding sport at the international level; lets not make it unnecessarily harder on ourselves.

Also worth mentioning is the effort that goes into getting sponsorships which is scrapped every couple of years with a new World Team. It took a lot of work prior to get sponsors. A lot of that starts over again with a new team. We all know how important time and money is to making things happen. Just ask the Spanish team.


I say lets acknowledge the dedication and sacrifice it takes to do a Worlds event the way it deserves to be done for the USA. Lets promote future hardworking, potentially repeat competitors, and put away any petty personal issues for the greater good of the sport.

If you are just shooting the idea down to better your chances of getting on the team by leaving it far harder for the current team to get in again than you are a jackass and also hurting the chances of US improving for selfish reasons.

If you are shooting the idea down because you would hate to see a particular person have a repeat representation, that’s just unfortunate for the entire community.

If you do have a legitimate reasons to to oppose my input here, you have my respect and hopes that you will provide your input as well to better improve our international aspirations, but just saying it wont fly because its not the way it was done before absolutely doesn't cut it and is frankly lacking any thought.

If backed properly, the USA should rightfully be a top threat to the title every time. No question, we do in fact have some high potential spearos in the US.

Again though, when competitors from other teams decided that they genuinely liked us and started asking about seeing us next year, (greece, south africa, new zealand, ukraine ect.) and we explained the predicament we were in for a return appearance they laughed at us! That’s the scenario our US Team is faced with right now. The rest of the world knows that following a system which promotes sending a different team every time is counterproductive, but we are content to stay the course. That's weak.

Lets make a change for the better and take another step in the right direction to kicking some international ass!!


Best of luck and all the support in the US to our new World Team!
Justin:
I agree with you!
I believe you know my feelings towards the 2010 world team! I take my hat in front of you all!
You and all the 2010 world team including your captain Brian must be very proud of your effort, results and individual improvement as competitors and divers!
As you implied it is a chimera trying to win an international tournament, even less the worlds with a brand new team every year! On the first time around, one starts to understand the whole process by the time the tournament comes to an end.
It takes a lot more than being a good diver to win one of those tournaments, which is probably the reason behind the fact that the winners are 99% of times divers with previous experiences.
"Experience" can't be improvised; we must endure every burden on the way and do what it takes to learn and there is no second to a world tournament as a learning experience for a competitive spear fisherman.
I believe the selection of a world team must be made thru a series of qualifying tournaments that leads to the nationals, to get at the end the best athletes, "The Winners"
As in any other Team sport; there should be regular players and alternates, spear fishing should not be different, the team ought to be formed by several divers, in my opinion 6 or more, to select the top 3 for the meet, 1-2 days prior to the actual event and the reminders will be very needed support people anyway. After the meet such a selected group of divers should stay together as a team thru the period between worlds tournaments and should participate in other international competitions during same period of time as training experience.
The selection of a team captain, should not be a democratic one; it should be a position at the federation level, like the national director, the person for the position must have knowledge, experience and the authority to chose the actual competitors out of a pre-selected team, based on performance during scouting and pre-tournament training process, physical condition, readiness, etc.
As you mention before it is a very long process and a monumental project to get ready for the worlds, and a huge commitment for everyone involved; even more if every year we have to start from scratch!
Again these are some of my humble ideas, I hope this discussion will give new lights to our sport in America!

Best Regards

Erick

Last edited by SpearMax; 07-02-2011 at 08:55 AM.
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:28 PM   #34
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Smile Re: USOA National Spearfishing Championships 2011

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Originally Posted by DRSALADO View Post
Again these are some of my humble ideas, I hope this discussion will give new lights to our sport in America!

Best Regards

Erick
Erick, the debate and the participant comments are excellent. Keep it up as it is enlightening to all observers. I spoke by phone with Dennis about it earlier tonight and he certainly welcomes the input in advance of the Nationals. Thanks, Tony
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Old 05-14-2011, 05:21 AM   #35
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Re: USOA National Spearfishing Championships 2011

I think it's worth mentioning that my aspirations and desire to potentially some day return to the worlds, does still exist, it just wasn't going to happen in 2012 with too much effort concerted on the worlds in 2010 and none on the nationals in 2010. I think it is unfortunate to see a team of 24 and 25 year old guys who competed in the 2010 worlds scrubbed from pursuing the worlds in 2012 for any reason and hopefully there are ways we can make it worth while for that not to happen in the future, if nothing else by making the worlds team a more well supported and sponsored team.

The most difficult thing for me to post recently was that "I personally had no desire to represent in 2012." The truth of the matter is, as it stands, for an outsider who has never been to the worlds it seems like you are going to bust you hump in two nationals, go to a world event to most likely take a beating from other better supported countries, and then if you do want to return, in that same year while you are trying to put everything into the worlds, you must somehow find the time to give the nationals enough attention to do very well there. If you elect as WE did to give all your time and energy to the worlds that year, then you will not return next time. That is the road we chose because our desire to do well in the worlds was put before all else. Early in 2010 Sean, John and myself were making plans to team up for the nationals in Arkansas. As our plans and strategies for the worlds unfolded, conflicting interests caused us to set aside plans for the nationals and focus on what would benefit us most for the worlds.

In my heart I know, had the proposal I am talking about now been in place, I would be there at this year's nationals vying for a spot on the 2012 team. I lived in florida all winter and would have already stared prepping and doing my homework long ago and I think you might see Sean and John there with me, but that's not a position anyone from the 2010 team is in now. If you read everything I posted with all the emphasis on repeat competitors I think it speaks to the fact that all of us on the team wishes that we at least still had the chance to represent in 2012, but we stand by our decisions we made in 2010 in pursuit of doing well in the worlds.

I couldn't help but harp on the importance of repeat competitors because of our circumstances, but taking a step back, the equally and perhaps more important premise here is that the world team would be able to focus everything on their world event without straining their chances to return based on their previously earned rankings.

Again, the proposal is for US Team members to receive an average of their last two nationals percentile points in place of nationals scores coinciding with the year they compete in the worlds.

If a US Team member choses to go to the nationals on the year of the worlds, whatever score they get, they get.
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Old 05-14-2011, 08:16 AM   #36
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Re: USOA National Spearfishing Championships 2011

instead of re-inventing the wheel, can we just copy someone? you guys said Spain was one of the top competitors, so how do they select their teams? can we adopt such a system? or even modify it a little? and if not spain, how about italy? or anyone else?
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Old 05-14-2011, 10:45 AM   #37
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Re: USOA National Spearfishing Championships 2011

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Originally Posted by fishyak View Post
instead of re-inventing the wheel, can we just copy someone? you guys said Spain was one of the top competitors, so how do they select their teams? can we adopt such a system? or even modify it a little? and if not spain, how about italy? or anyone else?
Piece of cake!! Got about 500K to throw at it? I will gladly be full time captain for that one!
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Old 05-14-2011, 12:41 PM   #38
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Re: USOA National Spearfishing Championships 2011

Dennis is right about the money issue with spain.

I don't think my idea would be reinventing the wheel, just filling in a gap in the way we do things at the top.

There should be a system in place for the US team to maintain a fair representation of earned rank while they are competing in the worlds.

Everything else, I think is good as is. Nationals determining rank and three competitors, one alternate, and volunteers and scouts on the world team. The captain being selected by that particular world team.

Having 6 competitors, more qualifying events (deters involvement), and the captain being able to pick who competes I do not support.

The top three are the top three. The alternate is there in case one of the competitors is physically unable to compete. In our situation at one point, 2/3 of the competitors agreed that the lowest scoring competitor on day one would sit day two so our secret weapon/med fish slaying alternate john modica could compete, but that decision didn't pass unanimously as a team, so it didn't happen and no one was resentful because that's how we made our decisions, as a team. I understand that the dynamics of every team is going to be different, but to me that's all the more reason the top three competitors should be the ones to compete, leaving nothing to question.

Giving the captain power to select from 6 guys who will compete on tournament day promotes a competition of personal interests within a competition, and that's a dangerous premise. When the top three are the top three there is no dispute with who competes and the team can focus on their common goal.

That's my take.

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Old 05-15-2011, 12:13 AM   #39
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Re: USOA National Spearfishing Championships 2011

sorry dennis,

after 2 years of diving, full time financial backing might, realistically, be required

I would love to know what jobs you guys have that you can take months off at a time to compete and then just waltz back in the door and continue work.

like I said, I dont know how they do it, so im sorry if I ask a dumb question. do any other countries have systems that dont require governmental backing?
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Old 05-15-2011, 09:41 AM   #40
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Re: USOA National Spearfishing Championships 2011

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sorry dennis,

after 2 years of diving, full time financial backing might, realistically, be required

I would love to know what jobs you guys have that you can take months off at a time to compete and then just waltz back in the door and continue work.

like I said, I dont know how they do it, so im sorry if I ask a dumb question. do any other countries have systems that dont require governmental backing?
Yes, 90% of them. I own a steel business, so it suffers while I'm gone,s, but I don;t have to answer to a boss. THe biggest reason I did not join the 2010 USA team, was family, and work. If I'm gone for 30-50 days,, all income would stop.
The top countries are France, Italy and Spain. Usually the hosting country is in the top as well, but this is because they can dedicate unlimited time to scouting and prep. No stupid questions Gabe, sorry if it sounded that way.
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Old 05-15-2011, 12:44 PM   #41
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Re: USOA National Spearfishing Championships 2011

I have been getting personal messages and would ask not to have them on this matter. I think that its best for everybody to remain in the loop, so ideas and suggestions can continue to flow. That is why I hope the person I am responding to here will forgive me for posting a response I was going to send just him (edited for the board), but I think he brought up good points and if there is confusion on my stance I need to clarify it.



Well thanks for writing, I only just got this message because if you look at my post numbers, i don't really use the board much and it took me awhile to realize i had a message.

Do you want me to be honest or sugar coat it? 12K, that's what I personally spent in Europe to do the worlds to the best of my ability. You are disillusioned if you think people don't have other priorities in life. Mine right now may include girls and chasing large fish at a fraction of the cost, but what do you expect coming from a 24 year old who elected to better his chances in the 2010 worlds by effectively and knowingly taking himself out of the 2012 worlds?

"Also one little point, your last post said that IF a world team guy when to Nationals then his score would not be averaged but his actual score would be used... that seems like a bad idea to me. We WANT the world guys to show up, so as an incentive they should be able to use their average or their ACTUAL score, whichever is higher... otherwise why should he risk his average score?[/quote]"

Valid point. I think there should be a way for the world team to focus on the worlds exclusively in the interest of doing their best without losing rank, and that is all I am trying to establish here. If they want the glory of doing well in another nationals that year, then that's great! The way I see it though, just like it has been before, if they make to the nationals, the score they get is what they got, but I'd be open and very interested in that discussion. To come up with the most agreed upon proposal, more people should give their take on that:

(If the averaging part the proposal I support were in place, when world team members do show up to the nationals the year of the worlds- I say they get what they get like before, others ask: should they receive their average score if they do worse, and their present score if they do better? the main benefit being providing an incentive for the world team to attend nationals) *My feelings on this specifically are not strong at all either way. I would get behind either version of the proposal depending on which the community as a whole preferred.

To clarify, the objective of my proposal has never been to make it easier for US Team members to make it again than those trying to make it for the first time. Incentives for people who are trying to get on the world team for the first time are also very important, particularly for attendance at the nationals. If the consensus is that the world team would need an incentive to attend nationals tacked onto the proposal, I'll back that, but more people would have to let it be known if that is what they want.

My proposal lets the world team focus on the worlds while maintaining a rank which they respectively earned thereby giving them a chance to show up to the next nationals and prove they deserve to be in the worlds again. If they don't make it, someone else deserved it more.

The basic thought here is that world team members should not need to divert their resources away from the worlds, and people who are trying to get on the worlds team for the first time should know they have a fair shot.

That is why I also do not support a team captain being able to pick who competes in the worlds on tournament day. Competitors in the Nationals should know they are competing to earn their place. If they do so, it should be theirs. If they are good enough to earn a spot, I am more than happy at that point to see them fully backed and supported unquestioningly in their quest to represent us without having to personally compete amongst their teammates.

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Old 05-16-2011, 04:33 AM   #42
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Re: USOA National Spearfishing Championships 2011

I should note that I edited my last post to more accurately state what the hell I was trying to say. I will delete this one later.

ps I'm tired of running with the ball, anyone else can have a crack at it if they want on this whole subject matter, and of course has my best regards if thier intentions are good for the sport, but i think I'm spent. For those of you who have, thanks for taking the time to hear me out.
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Old 05-16-2011, 02:15 PM   #43
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Re: USOA National Spearfishing Championships 2011

12k+ nationals cost= alot of $$$$$

I hope this years nationals will open the door to alot of potential oppurtunities for spearfishing. The Team (I THINK ITS MORE APPROPRIATE THAN COMMITTEE), assembling the nationals is working very hard to produce an well rounded, highly Publicized event. In doing so, we also hope this will get the ball rolling to have a spain-like support system where we can get the U.S.A up there.
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Old 05-17-2011, 09:07 AM   #44
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Re: USOA National Spearfishing Championships 2011

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Adel, no disrespect at all.

And I've said most of what I wanted to say, so time to have fun with it. Here is your visual. see attachment

You see this is the problem. This is what world competitions have to compete with. I could spent about 12K of my own personal money on the worlds and shoot next to no fish +miss work for weeks because I have to rearrange my schedule. Or on my own time and at a 5th of the expense go hanging out with brandon wahlers, shoot some tuna, chase some euro trash in bali maybe, whatever the occasion calls for. Sean and John would sooner do some more trips to fiji, I can't really speak for Dan.

The way the competitions are set up now you HAVE to spread yourself extremely thin if you want to represent in the Worlds well and show up next time because you have to do the nationals that year as well. That doesn't bode well for your performance in either event. Remember in my mind the most important thing is for the worlds team to be focused on the worlds. They shouldn't have to delude their resources elsewhere.

When it comes to the subject of FAIRNESS I would argue that as things are now the representing US team are the ones on the fairness losing end because they have a far more demanding and costly event to deal with that same season (2 if you include the Pan AMs) than people who are just doing the nationals to get in next time. Lets make putting the best damn US team we can out there our priory, and that means giving them a chance somehow to return next time without affecting there current performances.

Summarizing why I wouldn't be there in 2012: Two reasons 1)reality 2)money/time (call me undedicated but that is a factor)

1)reality, failure comes before success, the proposal I am backing now would not get passed while we were competing for USA in the worlds. I accepted that. It was too much of a change, change takes time and getting shot down a few times first before it happens. It was more important to me at the time to do well in that worlds. Honestly though failure of any proposals that would have benefited us may not have been such a bad thing if in the future some change for good comes out of it.

Failure before success by the way feeds into my point that promoting repeat competitors is a good idea.

So anyway I let my personal aspirations for 2012 fall by the wayside in hopes of improving my performance in 2010. I guess it was not so much that I wouldn't want to be there in 2012, but I can't be in two places at once and I made my decision and I stand by it and the consequences that accompany it.

2) Time and money. Consider this: Doing 2 consecutive worlds is very lofty 5 year commitment (2 qualifying nationals, one worlds and nationals year, one more qualifying nationals and then the worlds again) Its amazing that anyone has been able to accomplish that. A sweet job, say a firefighter with a good salary who can make his schedule, might be able to pull it off but very few can do it based on their circumstances. Also things change over time, people might be more busy/tied down/financially constrained than ever before. NOW is time for a change, give those who are giving it their all at the worlds a better shot at focusing on what is important that year and potentially sticking with the program so to speak and showing up to the next nationals, unlike me. Really though how much intensive was there the way the cards are stacked against a back to back appearance (also see picture for where i found incentives)

That's about all I can really say on the matter in it's entirety. No reason to muddle it up from there. My interests are for the best intent of future US teams. I think the average proposal makes the most scene to fairly promote a better US representation at the worlds.

Keep in mind most guys make it to the worlds on a stellar home field performance, and a subpar to crappy away performance. One good high score, and one low one.

The scenario the world members would face is that they would have a decent score, say the alternate for instance might have a 65 and then (assuming they got to the worlds on a home field performance) they would have to compete in an abroad national venue. That's just the way the nationals rotation would work out. That's typical sub par to crappy territory for most although the best will prove they are such, but its no secrete that local knowledge rules. I'm just saying this proposal is not a total gimmie to the world team members to return next time around. They should still be represented only by what they earned in the last two nationals and the next. They are just being granted a well deserved opportunity to focus on the worlds that all important year they will be representing us.
P.S. whenever you and brando need a 3rd musketeer, you will find no one can pick up the trash like me! While I am at it I dont mind shooting a fish or two
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Old 05-17-2011, 09:23 AM   #45
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Re: USOA National Spearfishing Championships 2011

Hate to interupt the trash talk.....Warsaw Grouper are listed as eligible species on the tournament fish list. It is my understanding that their harvest is now banned from the tournament area?
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