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Old 02-25-2014, 02:53 AM   #1
Grizzlestomp
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Oil, Epoxy, or Penetrating Epoxy

I carved a handle out of a piece of teak for my Riffe Comp 3x with a router/dremel/hand tools. I like it a lot more than the plastic handle. I routed out part of the stock behind the trigger mech so that my hand lies flush against the stock when I'm gripping the handle.

I also carved a little mount adapter for my Ulusub reel out of teak, including a little extra mass in front of the reel for ballast purposes. It's the first speargun I ever owned, and just wanted a project.

The wood I used was cut from big teak boards from House of Hardwoods in Los Angeles. I have heard that teak is sometimes treated before being used to make spearguns, and have no idea whether the wood i used to carve the handle/adapter were treated in any way.

My question is how to best protect these pieces. Should I just use a penetrating oil like the one in the Riffe Kit to seal the wood?

Should I use a penetrating epoxy? If so, does anyone have any recommendations about good off-the-shelf brands? I'd rather not have to mix anything myself.

Or, should I epoxy them? If so, is there an epoxy I could use that doesn't require me to turn the pieces as they cure?

I've read a lot of the threads about the pros & cons of different treatments, but just wanted to know what people thought would be the best protection for this specific project.
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Old 02-25-2014, 08:41 AM   #2
Behslayer
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Re: Oil, Epoxy, or Penetrating Epoxy

Since it's on the Riffe and you already have their kit, you could probably just use the Oil. Maybe heat up the pieces a little, i.e. in a hot car, not oven, to around 90 degrees. Then flood on the oil using a brush. Let it sit for 10 minutes and then rub it off. Repeat. Repeat.

If you wanted to go Penetrating Epoxy. You can either buy this like Smiths, or make it yourself by adding Acetone or Laquer Thinner to whatever brand of Epoxy you have there. @ 25% thinner to mixed epoxy ratio should do it. Same deal. Heat up the wood a bit. 1-2 times is fine. You can sand it down after it's cured a few days with 220 and then put that Riffe Oil on it too.

I'd suggest against multiple layers of build epoxy because the rest of the gun isn't epoxied and it will throw off all of your fits and require you to sand down.. to the wood.. and be right back where you started.
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Old 02-25-2014, 09:48 AM   #3
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Re: Oil, Epoxy, or Penetrating Epoxy

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Originally Posted by Behslayer View Post
Since it's on the Riffe and you already have their kit, you could probably just use the Oil. Maybe heat up the pieces a little, i.e. in a hot car, not oven, to around 90 degrees. Then flood on the oil using a brush. Let it sit for 10 minutes and then rub it off. Repeat. Repeat.

If you wanted to go Penetrating Epoxy. You can either buy this like Smiths, or make it yourself by adding Acetone or Laquer Thinner to whatever brand of Epoxy you have there. @ 25% thinner to mixed epoxy ratio should do it. Same deal. Heat up the wood a bit. 1-2 times is fine. You can sand it down after it's cured a few days with 220 and then put that Riffe Oil on it too.

I'd suggest against multiple layers of build epoxy because the rest of the gun isn't epoxied and it will throw off all of your fits and require you to sand down.. to the wood.. and be right back where you started.
Yup. The only thing I do differently is that when I brush the first coat of oil on, I look for areas where it just soaks right in (dull) and reapply right away in those areas until the whole thing stays wet (shiny). I wouldn't use "Penetrating Epoxy" because you can't be sure what it is. I would use regular clear two part epoxy thinned by 25% like Jon suggests. I prefer thinning with acetone, but laquer thinner also works well.
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Old 02-25-2014, 10:24 AM   #4
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Re: Oil, Epoxy, or Penetrating Epoxy

I'm not sure what that Smiths 2 part is.. except that it's full of bad things like Toluene, it's probably explosive, and that for whatever reason.. that stuff works really well. I've done a few guns using @ 5 coats of Smiths, and those things hardened up and were VERY durable and resilient. Use of Respirator is suggested. Ventillation suggested. Smoking not suggested.
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Old 02-25-2014, 11:53 AM   #5
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Re: Oil, Epoxy, or Penetrating Epoxy

http://www.westsystem.com/ss/thinnin...-system-epoxy/

according to west adding 5% thinner makes a 60% reduction in viscosity ,but reduces strength by 35% .


from the west systems site .



A question frequently posed to our technical staff is "can I thin WEST SYSTEM epoxy so it will flow or penetrate better?" The answer to that question is "yes, but not without consequences." Many of the advantages of thinning epoxy are offset by disadvantages in other areas of epoxy performance.



Thinning epoxy means lowering its viscosity (Figure1). Low viscosity epoxy flows better, is easier to roll or brush, saturates fiberglass fabric quickly, and penetrates more deeply and more easily into porous surfaces like partially rotted wood. There are two methods of temporarily thinning epoxy. One is to heat the mixture and the other is to add solvent to the mix. The goal of both methods is to reduce the epoxy’s viscosity. This article explains what happens to WEST SYSTEM epoxy when it is thinned either by heating the components or adding solvent to the mixture.

Through knowledge gained from our comprehensive test programs and from 30 years of practical experience, we have learned that epoxy formulation is a balancing act. When one characteristic is altered—e.g. changing handling attributes by adding a volatile solvent—other characteristics like moisture resistance and strength are also changed. Our chemists formulate a well balanced, versatile epoxy that provides excellent structural strength and moisture resistance. If you elect to modify it, you become an epoxy formulator and need to understand the effects of your changes. Armed with the information in this article, you can decide if thinning epoxy is worth the tradeoff in performance.

Is thinning necessary?

There is a perception that epoxy needs to penetrate deeply into wood to be effective. Sometimes this is true, but most of the time it is not. Some common misconceptions are that deep penetration of epoxy 1) makes rotted wood as strong as new, 2) increases adhesion, and 3) makes wood more waterproof. The following is a brief discussion of these points.



1) Rotted wood impregnated with epoxy does not make the damaged wood as good as new. Deep penetration of epoxy into rotted wood will make the wood hard but it will not restore its original strength. This is not important if the rotted material is non-load bearing. A rotted door threshold does not need to be strong, just hard. However, when the wood fiber is damaged, wood loses its ability to carry loads and unless the fiber is replaced, it will not regain its full strength. A rotted deck beam or sailboat mast needs more than epoxy consolidation to return the wood to its original load carrying capacity.

2) Adhesion in all but the highest density wood is not enhanced by deep penetration of the glue into the wood. Research performed at the Forest Products Laboratory showed that adhesion to birch was increased slightly by using thinned epoxy. In lower density wood species like Sitka spruce or Douglas fir, the weak link is the cross grain strength of the wood. It does not matter if the epoxy penetrates 1/4" into the wood or 5/1000". The strength of the wood, the amount of surface area and the adhesive ability of the glue determine the strength of a glue joint. Most types of wood glue do not penetrate deeply, yet, if used properly, they can exceed the grain strength. Epoxy is no exception.

3) Water resistance of a piece of wood is not enhanced by deep penetration. Wrapping wood in plastic makes a pretty good waterproof seal without any penetration at all. Likewise, an epoxy coating on the surface is more water-resistant than a thinned epoxy coating that has penetrated deeply into the wood because, in most instances, the epoxy thinned with solvent is porous.

The USDA Forest Products Laboratory developed the Moisture Exclusion Effectiveness (MEE) test. It is a measure of how much moisture is absorbed by wood when it is continuously exposed to 100% humidity. Higher numbers mean the wood has absorbed more moisture while lower numbers indicate less moisture is absorbed. You can see that epoxy with solvent added is not nearly as moisture resistant as un-thinned epoxy (Figure 2). However, if you need an epoxy coated surface that is less of a vapor barrier, thinning WEST SYSTEM epoxy with solvent is a valid way to achieve this

Thinning epoxy with heat.

Heating the resin/hardener components and then mixing them together results in a thinned epoxy mixture that, when cured, retains all the characteristics of epoxy cured at room temperature. The viscosity of epoxy is very sensitive to changes in temperature, and warming the components (resin and hardener) and/or the substrate substantially lowers its viscosity (Figure 3).



With wood, the best method of thinning epoxy with heat is to warm the wood and have the resin and hardener at room temperature. Mix the components and apply the mixture to the warm wood surface. Remove the heat source just before the epoxy is applied. When the epoxy mixture comes in contact with the warm wood, it gets warm and its viscosity becomes lower. As the temperature of the wood falls, the thin epoxy is drawn in deeply before it begins to gel. By heating the substrate instead of the components, you get the best of both worlds—low viscosity epoxy on the work surface and longer working time in the mixing pot.

Potential Problems

Thinning epoxy with heat can create problems, however. Warm epoxy cures much more quickly than you may be accustomed to. Have things organized before you mix the resin and hardener and move quickly. Use one of the slower hardeners—206, 207, or 209—to increase the working time.

How warm is warm? You should be able to comfortably touch the substrate or the component containers when they are appropriately warmed—about 115°F maximum. Excessive heat will cause the epoxy to harden too fast, especially in thick applications. Very rapid cure will overheat the epoxy. If smoke rises from the curing epoxy, it is likely the epoxy is damaged and should be replaced.

Thinning epoxy with solvent

Adding solvent is a quick, simple method of thinning epoxy, but unlike using heat to thin it, the strength and moisture resistance of the cured epoxy are drastically affected. Below are some of the effects adding solvent has on WEST SYSTEM epoxy. While there are a large number of chemicals available to thin epoxy, we selected acetone, lacquer thinner and denatured alcohol for this discussion because they are commonly available and do a good job of reducing viscosity. Additionally, these solvents evaporate quickly and are less likely to be trapped in the cured epoxy—an important characteristic. For a variety of reasons, fast evaporating lacquer thinner appears to be more appropriate for thinning purposes than acetone or alcohol.

Adding a small amount of one of these solvents has a significant effect on the viscosity of the epoxy. For example, adding 5% lacquer thinner makes about a 60% reduction in viscosity (Figure 4).





Adding 5% lacquer thinner to epoxy reduces the epoxy’s compressive strength by 35%—a big hit in the mechanical properties of WEST SYSTEM epoxy (Figure 5). The addition of more than 5% solvent results in an excessively flexible cured material. Thinning epoxy with solvent causes enough loss of strength that we (and most other reputable epoxy formulators) cannot recommend using it as a structural adhesive.
Adding a volatile solvent extends the pot life and cure time of epoxy and jeopardizes the reliability and predictability of cure. Additionally, with slow rate of cure, it takes longer before work can be sanded.
Adding volatile solvent may cause shrinkage of the cured epoxy. Applying thinned epoxy in large, confined areas (like consolidating a large pocket of rotted wood) is likely to trap some of the solvent. In thick applications, the epoxy cures very quickly and not all of the solvent has time to evaporate before the epoxy hardens. Over time, the solvent works its way out and as this happens, the cured epoxy shrinks and in many instances cracks. Shrinkage also causes print through. You may have a surface sanded smooth only to have the resin shrink. This shrinkage often reveals the texture of the substrate. Shrinkage can continue to be a problem until all the trapped solvent works its way out of the cured epoxy.
Adding solvents, especially acetone, alters the color of the cured epoxy. While the effects are not immediate, adding acetone to epoxy causes the color to change from slightly amber to very dark amber.
Adding solvent results in a temporary reduction in viscosity. Volatile solvents evaporate quickly as they are agitated during brushing or rolling, causing the viscosity to continually change as time passes.
Adding solvent to epoxy may damage the substrate. Many materials (Styrofoam™ for example) are not attacked by epoxy but may be attacked by the solvent used to thin the epoxy. Be certain to test the substrate with the solvent before using it to thin the epoxy.
Adding volatile solvent to WEST SYSTEM epoxy has some adverse health and safety effects. WEST SYSTEM epoxy components are nonflammable but the chance of fire or explosion goes up in proportion to the amount of solvent you add. Also, the vapors of many volatile solvents are hazardous to your health and proper ventilation is mandatory to prevent inhaling harmful quantities of them.
Adding volatile solvent to epoxy which is then applied as a coating may cause problems with various regulatory agencies. If your business is inspected for air quality, adding volatile solvents to WEST SYSTEM epoxy may make your business non-compliant.
Adding solvent to epoxy to enhance fiberglass wet-out will result in more "drain out" of the resin on a vertical surface. The fabric will wet-out quickly but it may become resin starved when too much epoxy runs out of the fabric.
Does thinning epoxy make sense? In some situations, thinning is appropriate. In others, it is not. We feel that in most circumstances using heat to thin epoxy is preferred to using solvents. As long as the epoxy does not overheat during cure, the full physical characteristics of the cured epoxy remain. Adding solvent is a quick, simple method of thinning epoxy, but the strength and moisture resistance of the cured epoxy are significantly reduced.

We will continue to research this subject and publish our findings in Epoxyworks.

Epoxyworks 14 / Fall 1999
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Old 02-25-2014, 12:35 PM   #6
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Re: Oil, Epoxy, or Penetrating Epoxy

Thanks for all the advice, it's a huge help.

I think I would like to brush on a layer or two of epoxy, thinned either through heat or solvent. The teak I used to carve these pieces is a little soft, at least compared to the Riffe stock, and I would like to harden it up a little bit in addition to moisture protection.

Do any of you have any reccomendations for off-the-shelf epoxy to use? I know Neptonic sells Phil's, but I don't really need 2lbs of epoxy. I was hoping to buy just a small quantity.

I don't think UV yellowing should be much of a problem, considering I'm not coating the surface with build epoxy, but have no idea which product to choose out of the millions out there.

I figure I'd also need something with a reasonably slow cure because I know that heat thinning speeds up the cure time.

Thanks again,
Taylor
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Old 02-25-2014, 02:05 PM   #7
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Re: Oil, Epoxy, or Penetrating Epoxy

I'd love to know to what epoxy you can buy over the shelf. I'm turning my gun into a mid handle and just need a little bit of epoxy as well. rather than two pounds.
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Old 02-25-2014, 06:47 PM   #8
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Re: Oil, Epoxy, or Penetrating Epoxy

I'll add something else about thinning epoxy. The more "thinning" agent you use (acetone), the deeper it will penetrate. When applying multiple coats (as you should), you need to reduce the acetone percentage on each subsequent coat, with the final coat being 100% epoxy.
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Old 02-26-2014, 02:13 AM   #9
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Re: Oil, Epoxy, or Penetrating Epoxy

By choosing the correct hardener, there really is no need to thin the epoxy. WS 209 hardener creates an epoxy mix has the consistency of oil. If you warm up the stock and the epoxy mix, it will absorb into the stock quite deeply with a long set time.
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Old 02-26-2014, 02:35 AM   #10
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Re: Oil, Epoxy, or Penetrating Epoxy

Yeah, it seems as if warming up the stock and maybe the epoxy would be the best bet. My only problem is that I only need a little bit of epoxy and don't want to spend $60-$80 on epoxy for a project that I took on for my own amusement.

I think I'll just warm up the stock and warm up the Riffe Penetrating Oil and try and work that stuff deep into the wood. Hopefully that will give me enough protection.

Thanks for the tip on the heat though. I know I'll warm up the stock. Does anyone know if warming up the penetrating oil can have any of the degrading effects on it that warming up epoxy causes?
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Old 02-26-2014, 10:20 AM   #11
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Re: Oil, Epoxy, or Penetrating Epoxy

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Originally Posted by Grizzlestomp View Post
Yeah, it seems as if warming up the stock and maybe the epoxy would be the best bet. My only problem is that I only need a little bit of epoxy and don't want to spend $60-$80 on epoxy for a project that I took on for my own amusement.

I think I'll just warm up the stock and warm up the Riffe Penetrating Oil and try and work that stuff deep into the wood. Hopefully that will give me enough protection.

Thanks for the tip on the heat though. I know I'll warm up the stock. Does anyone know if warming up the penetrating oil can have any of the degrading effects on it that warming up epoxy causes?
Just don't let it get so hot that the oil catches fire and you will be fine , remember to be carefull with your used oil soaked rags
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Old 02-26-2014, 01:03 PM   #12
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Re: Oil, Epoxy, or Penetrating Epoxy

When I mentioned a long set time after heating, I meant with the 209 hardener. Heating will make the epoxy very thin and it will absorb very quickly, but the set time will be dramatically accelerated. I would certainly not want to use heat with 205 hardener or some other 5 or 10 minute epoxy.
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Old 02-27-2014, 07:44 AM   #13
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Re: Oil, Epoxy, or Penetrating Epoxy

Has anyone heard of super glaze. its a wood finishing epoxy to use on bar tops. supposed to be pretty heavy duty stuff. super hard durable and crystal clear and Home Depot has it for 23 bucks
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Old 02-27-2014, 11:30 AM   #14
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Re: Oil, Epoxy, or Penetrating Epoxy

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Has anyone heard of super glaze. its a wood finishing epoxy to use on bar tops. supposed to be pretty heavy duty stuff. super hard durable and crystal clear and Home Depot has it for 23 bucks
it works but its not the best , its actually soft as far as epoxy goes and will dent if you lean the gun up against something for a week or so ,and it yellows . but it is better than any of the west systems products for coating a gun .

phil
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Old 02-27-2014, 12:15 PM   #15
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Re: Oil, Epoxy, or Penetrating Epoxy

A lot of this stuff is debatable.. I've spoken at length with several of the Techs at the different Epoxy Manufacturing companies. Some, like the Gougheons, will spit fire at the idea of thinning Epoxy, others, like the tech team at System Three will encourage it. I routinely send out different finishes to our test guys to abuse. One of the most durable, hard, and easy finishes we have tested is simply 5 coats of Penetrating Epoxy, in this case Smiths, with Tung Oil on top.. kind of an odd mix. I'm sure there's 100 reasons and volumes of literature as to why this finish sucks, but the bottom line is that after 8000lbs of fish and commercial daily abuse.. that finish is going strong. Gun looks new. Hardly any scratches, and those can be easily remedied with Tung Oil. Only problem is, the stuff is ultra toxic.

Here's a pic of an old oiled gun, a traditional coated Epoxy Rear Handle, and a Penetrating Epoxy/Tung Oil Gun which have all been put through the work..

This being said, today I'll be fine sanding a gun down to 240. Then scuff sanding it with 80-100grit to raise up a little fiber, then I'll put that thing in the hot box up to @ 110. Then I'll give it a saturating coat with thinned West Systems Clear.

But next week..... we may have a game changer in our hands. Always forward.
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