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Old 01-12-2022, 03:22 AM   #1
doyenofcastle
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cracks on trigger area

Hi everyone ,

Long time since my last post ,I have face a problem recently in my roller gun made of laminated Padouk with a centered Teak stock ,as you see in pictures crack have start from the pin area and propagate toward up and other side ,I remember I have sealed the pin hole with thick layer of epoxy (enlarge the hole by 2 mm then closed by the epoxy and re-drill again the hole ) ,the only issue was that gun was confiscated for few weeks by coast guard ,but that was few months ago, what could be the reason behind ?I used it for 5 years and it was very accurate gun , I don't think repair could be possible ,cracks look more deep internally
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Old 01-12-2022, 07:23 AM   #2
popgun pete
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Re: cracks on trigger area

The mechanism pin holes flank the pocket in the stock that holds the trigger mechanism. This is the weakest part of the gun if it is subjected to side loads during rough handling, such as the gun laying down and something heavy dropping on it which bows the stock laterally. I had a gun shipped in a case that was made up of L-shaped pressed fibre sections all strapped together to form a box, but the first time it was dropped it cracked the stock across the trigger mechanism holding pins which effectively destroyed it, but it only exhibited a tiny crack on first inspection. The guy who packed it was an idiot, but the gun was a write off and I had no comeback.
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Old 01-12-2022, 07:49 AM   #3
doyenofcastle
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Smile Re: cracks on trigger area

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Originally Posted by popgun pete View Post
The mechanism pin holes flank the pocket in the stock that holds the trigger mechanism. This is the weakest part of the gun if it is subjected to side loads during rough handling, such as the gun laying down and something heavy dropping on it which bows the stock laterally. I had a gun shipped in a case that was made up of L-shaped pressed fibre sections all strapped together to form a box, but the first time it was dropped it cracked the stock across the trigger mechanism holding pins which effectively destroyed it, but it only exhibited a tiny crack on first inspection. The guy who packed it was an idiot, but the gun was a write off and I had no comeback.
Thanks for reply and sorry for that lost ,unfortunately life full of that guys ,

From your experience the trigger pin hole shall be drill using bit size equal to the pin diameter or little less ? For that gun i drilled hole 4.5mm but pin is 4.8mm
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Old 01-12-2022, 04:42 PM   #4
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Re: cracks on trigger area

I drill pin holes to size as at some time I may want to drive the pins out and I don't want the timber to crack. Once when dismantling a long-time favourite gun to my dismay one pin drove out taking out a thin surface wedge of timber with it. I had failed to paint over the end of the pins which were stainless steel (316) and seawater wicking in had set up crevice corrosion on the surface of the pins making them slightly rough. This roughness keyed on the timber and cracked the outer layer off on the away side as the pin drove out. The gun was over 20 years old and had always been rinsed after use, but the ocean environment is a tough place. I salvaged the situation by gluing the piece back and doing some refinishing before revarnishing and installing new pins and this time coating them on the ends. This made me realise why old-timers used brass or bronze pins, the copper kills organic nasties working on the timber and the corrosion is not a problem compared to steel (iron) rusting and growing. The chrome protection on stainless steel does not work when oxygen is excluded, like in a snug hole, even on the highest grades of stainless with a lot of chrome content such as 316.
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Old 01-12-2022, 05:27 PM   #5
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Re: cracks on trigger area

Good time to make a new gun.
Can it be fixed? Sure. Is it worth the effort? No.
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Old 01-12-2022, 06:34 PM   #6
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Re: cracks on trigger area

That doesn't look good...
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Old 01-12-2022, 10:57 PM   #7
doyenofcastle
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Re: cracks on trigger area

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Originally Posted by popgun pete View Post
I drill pin holes to size as at some time I may want to drive the pins out and I don't want the timber to crack. Once when dismantling a long-time favourite gun to my dismay one pin drove out taking out a thin surface wedge of timber with it. I had failed to paint over the end of the pins which were stainless steel (316) and seawater wicking in had set up crevice corrosion on the surface of the pins making them slightly rough. This roughness keyed on the timber and cracked the outer layer off on the away side as the pin drove out. The gun was over 20 years old and had always been rinsed after use, but the ocean environment is a tough place. I salvaged the situation by gluing the piece back and doing some refinishing before revarnishing and installing new pins and this time coating them on the ends. This made me realise why old-timers used brass or bronze pins, the copper kills organic nasties working on the timber and the corrosion is not a problem compared to steel (iron) rusting and growing. The chrome protection on stainless steel does not work when oxygen is excluded, like in a snug hole, even on the highest grades of stainless with a lot of chrome content such as 316.
Thanks for the knowledge you share ,it will help everyone who usually just fix trigger without considering that points
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Old 01-17-2022, 12:29 PM   #8
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Re: cracks on trigger area

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Originally Posted by SEATUX View Post
Good time to make a new gun.
Can it be fixed? Sure. Is it worth the effort? No.
Good advise. Yes it can be fixed but a new gun would definitely be the better fix.
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Old 01-17-2022, 02:31 PM   #9
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Re: cracks on trigger area

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Good advise. Yes it can be fixed but a new gun would definitely be the better fix.
Agreed.
The only exception would be if he had some very sentimental value attached.
I once had a guy come in that filmed for National geographic...his wet suit was SHOT!
He wanted it repaired .. not replaced. It was his Lucky Suit!

So..OK!
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Old 01-19-2022, 02:04 AM   #10
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Re: cracks on trigger area

That looks pretty dangerous! Most likely water has infiltrated the wood in the hole and probably these guns are being loaded through hip rather than chest ... this puts a lot of stress in that area. The proper way to have the trigger installed in a gun is to have the box of the trigger an exact fit ... the pins just retain the trigger in place and don't really pick up the stress of a loaded gun. The load is mainly distributed on the front frame of the trigger box and on a square trigger box ... the back end also prevents lift.

A good idea with holes in wood is to drill an oversized hole and then refill the hole with CF filler and epoxy ... then drill out the hole for the pin. This way you always retain the water tightness of the hole you made and water ingress into the wood is not an issue.
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Old 01-24-2022, 01:10 PM   #11
doyenofcastle
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Re: cracks on trigger area

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Originally Posted by spearq8 View Post
That looks pretty dangerous! Most likely water has infiltrated the wood in the hole and probably these guns are being loaded through hip rather than chest ... this puts a lot of stress in that area. The proper way to have the trigger installed in a gun is to have the box of the trigger an exact fit ... the pins just retain the trigger in place and don't really pick up the stress of a loaded gun. The load is mainly distributed on the front frame of the trigger box and on a square trigger box ... the back end also prevents lift.

A good idea with holes in wood is to drill an oversized hole and then refill the hole with CF filler and epoxy ... then drill out the hole for the pin. This way you always retain the water tightness of the hole you made and water ingress into the wood is not an issue.
thanks for your Great advice spearq8
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Old 12-06-2023, 02:36 AM   #12
doyenofcastle
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Re: cracks on trigger area

Here another issues came from the pins in the line release ,I was trying the trigger for a new gun and found out that cracks in the pins area ,gun was made from IROKO and sealed well by epoxy ,all pins was made by epoxy mortar not directly drill on wood (large hole filled by mortar then drill to the pin size ) ,the gun have too much catch in last 4 years and I think time come for retirement however if there is away to fix it will be great .
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Old 12-06-2023, 03:58 AM   #13
popgun pete
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Re: cracks on trigger area

Quote:
Originally Posted by doyenofcastle View Post
Here another issues came from the pins in the line release ,I was trying the trigger for a new gun and found out that cracks in the pins area ,gun was made from IROKO and sealed well by epoxy ,all pins was made by epoxy mortar not directly drill on wood (large hole filled by mortar then drill to the pin size ) ,the gun have too much catch in last 4 years and I think time come for retirement however if there is away to fix it will be great .
I think that gun has had its day, last thing you want is the gun folding up under band load. You could brace the gun with wood side stocks either side and bolt those fore and aft, but not really worth doing when it is easier to make another gun and just reuse the components.
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Old 12-06-2023, 05:19 AM   #14
doyenofcastle
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Re: cracks on trigger area

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Originally Posted by popgun pete View Post
I think that gun has had its day, last thing you want is the gun folding up under band load. You could brace the gun with wood side stocks either side and bolt those fore and aft, but not really worth doing when it is easier to make another gun and just reuse the components.
absolutely true , I just want to know the possible reasons ,it is similar to metal failure analysis to avoid that problem in future for me as well others .
I have notice the side pins was ok ,the side pins made by drilling large hole and refill by epoxy ,line release pin hole crack propagated in the shallowest area in the internal side where the epoxy almost have no cover by wood
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Old 12-06-2023, 02:51 PM   #15
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Re: cracks on trigger area

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Originally Posted by doyenofcastle View Post
absolutely true , I just want to know the possible reasons ,it is similar to metal failure analysis to avoid that problem in future for me as well others .
I have notice the side pins was ok ,the side pins made by drilling large hole and refill by epoxy ,line release pin hole crack propagated in the shallowest area in the internal side where the epoxy almost have no cover by wood
That crack looks like the one in my busted Sea Hornet when during transport stupid packaging decisions by the seller caused a momentary big load on it. With the pin there that cross section is the weakest point. Under side deflection a piece of timber tries to bend like a leaf spring and anywhere along the length, but mainly away from the ends, the material can fail. I don't recommend potting pins, you may eliminate rot, but as the timber sees it there is a larger hole in it, which means even weaker in that spot. Seal your pins with paint or epoxy. The only downside is that if the pins corrode then they will key in the timber and tear timber out when driven. Or use bronze or brass pins, they give less trouble, they are a weaker material, but will still serve.
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