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Old 09-22-2014, 03:05 AM   #1
Grizzlestomp
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69" Bluewater Cannon Questions

Building a big ole bluewater cannon. I'm working with a massive, 16 laminate 5"x3"x69" carbon fiber reinforced padauk blank that I'm going to heavily taper/cut down to size. I've cut the enclosed track dovetail slot, trigger mech, pushrod slot, trigger slot, etc.

I ran into a little confusion deciding how to install the muzzle ferrules for tie in bands. I am planning on using 4 bands and an 11/32 shaft for most situations, but am going to install 5 sets of ferrules so that I could add a 5th band if I ever get a chance to hunt yellowfin tuna.

I need a little help designing where the ferrules are going to sit in the nose of the gun. I have heard there is a risk of tangling with tie in muzzle bands and was wondering if there was a way to minimize that. Maybe leaving the closest muzzle ferrule a good half inch from the enclosed track?

Also, I wanted to get the bands to sit as flat as possible. I was thinking that with the width of my gun I could space the ferrules to allow the bands to sit pretty close to perfectly flat. I figure maybe spacing the ferrules a little farther apart would be the best way.

If anybody has pictures or ideas of the best way to do this to encourage the bands to lay flat, I'd really appreciate any guidance.
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Old 09-22-2014, 03:50 AM   #2
2fishin2
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Re: 69" Bluewater Cannon Questions

Maybe you dont need that many?
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Old 09-22-2014, 04:07 AM   #3
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Re: 69" Bluewater Cannon Questions

Well the 11/32 shaft is pretty heavy, and I already bought the enclosed track. Wouldn't want less than four bands to push it through big fish.

In case you were talking about the blank, I used that many laminates with CF between them because I narrowed the blank to only 1.5" for the recessed handle area and I wanted the extra CF layers for support (I'm going to wrap that area in CF/fiberglass as well).
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Old 09-22-2014, 05:04 AM   #4
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Re: 69" Bluewater Cannon Questions

I don't know if I would want an enclosed track on an almost 9mm shaft. An ET helps when shooting long thin shafts (like 7mm) that are pushed beyond what they should be pushed at. An ET gun will require that you add more power (thus more recoil) to compensate for the added friction caused by the ET to be able to get an equivalent velocity. Personally I think you are better off with something like an 8mm shaft as you will have plenty of mass at about 170cm shaft with an open track. You will get plenty of velocity out of 3 long bands and a 4th band might not even be necessary unless your shooting line is cable. The thing is that if you are using cable then long range accuracy will suffer ... so then you really also don't need a 4th band as you will need to shoot at closer ranges. A 170cm shaft @ 8mm will go through a 10cm free floating high density construction foam target at 4 meters from tip of shaft to target with a single 16mm band @ 130cm band stretch and a rough estimate is that you need 1 extra 16mm band @ around 135cm band stretch for each extra meter of additional effective range you want to add. The maximum range of your gun with 2 wraps is around 6.5 meters ... this should get you some data to have a better idea of how to narrow down your choices, and why I think you will never need anything more than 4 bands at the band stretch your gun will be able to take.

Last edited by spearq8; 09-22-2014 at 06:45 AM.
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Old 09-22-2014, 06:48 AM   #5
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Re: 69" Bluewater Cannon Questions

I think you're on the right track with your spacing. If you want to do the ferrules. I had my friend build me a 65" gun 11/32" enclosed track, but it has a band slot. Shoots awesome with 4 bands. Is the enclosed track necessary? Maybe not. But sometimes I put a 5/16" shaft in there when I'm hunting Ono. He built a couple "tuna guns" around the same time. More mass ,4 band slot ,AND ferrules for two more optional bands. It was a good solution for multiple bands on a gun that size..
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Old 09-22-2014, 10:32 AM   #6
Behslayer
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Re: 69" Bluewater Cannon Questions

Hmm. I never been a giant fan of Ferrule muzzles, they do lay flat, it's what happens after firing that puts me off.

A lot of pics and stories can be posted here making a case for smaller, less powerful guns being used.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-obZZ...ature=youtu.be

If you live or are headed somewhere the fish are incredibly bountiful and you have the option to be ultraselective and place your shots, or if you just get Damn lucky, you can use almost any equipment. People have taken large tuna using Polespears.

4 bands on an 11/32" sounds good. That shaft can also support 5 bands with or without the ET. 4 Bands on a 5/16" is nice. 5 Bands tends to overpower the shaft. ET's are cool because they hold the shaft in place while diving and during travel. But Magnets will do that as well.

I have a much easier time swinging and controlling a nicely balanced 4-5 band Big Wooden Mid Handle gun with an 11/32" shaft and Slip Tip than I do a long light Rear Handle.

Looks like a good project. Show us some pics of the development. Will be cool to see how you are mixing in the CF.
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Old 09-22-2014, 10:56 AM   #7
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Re: 69" Bluewater Cannon Questions

My thought would be have you ever shot a gun with the bands tied in on the top? Years ago I bought a custom gun from Steve Veros that had the bands tied in on the top. The gun was incredibly nice (one of the only guns Ive bought new in 22 years). I loved everything about it except when I would aim the gun what I was looking at was a big wad of knots at the muzzle and a big wad of knots at the trigger mechanism. When you lined the 2 wads up on the fish you couldn't hardly see the fish or your shaft. It drove me crazy to the point that I ended up selling the gun. I now like a high placed traditional band slot and I use hard Mori type wish bones for a clean line of sight down the shaft.
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Old 09-22-2014, 11:15 AM   #8
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Re: 69" Bluewater Cannon Questions

One more thing I didn't care for was that the bands (because they are on top and the way that they thin out in the middle when stretched)would vibrate a lot more when swinging them. I constantly found myself holding the bands in the middle when swinging so they didn't vibrate.

I can imagine that building your own gun allows you to build it exactly the way you want it. Everybody has an opinion. So forgive me for putting my 2 cents in but I was hoping you had thought about these issues before you put a ton of time into a gun.

Good luck.
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Old 09-23-2014, 01:18 AM   #9
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Re: 69" Bluewater Cannon Questions

Thanks for all the input. Still torn between tie-in bands and a muzzle slot.

I basically am laying a couple layers of CF uni and twill laid on the bottom half or wrapped around the handle area. Below are a couple pics of a smaller build I'm finishing up with the handle/reel area reinforced with CF. There's only 1 1/4 inches of wood above the recessed handle, and I also wanted to hide some flaws in the wood from cutting the handle/reel pockets.

One of the reasons I've been leaning towards tie-in bands is how hard it is to shape a huge, wide gun so that the bands don't rub and bend around a squarish stock.

I shaped the front of my padauk and wenge CF reinforced gun with a traditional band slot (below) based on the design of my 165 Ulusub MH, and it took FOREVER!!! Behslayer, how/why you sell those badboys for such a good price is beyond me. That level of shaping is just so difficult and time consuming to perfect that I thought it might be easier on my next one just to cut a flat top and a tapered, triangular bottom than custom shaping the extra wide stock to accommodate all those bands.

I've got very limited experience and access to quality tools so I'm basically just trying to copy those with experience and throw in a few original aesthetic ideas here and there.

Thanks again for all the input. I'm going to try and come up with a few more ideas to spread out the ferrules and post my ideas for critique.

I'm already set for guns with what I have, just can't dive for while due to some stitches/staples in my leg and always enjoy building things using different ideas/methods than what I've done before.
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Old 09-23-2014, 01:29 AM   #10
2fishin2
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Re: 69" Bluewater Cannon Questions

Very nice lines on that gun! Although I have never used tie in bands, I dont like the way they lay and would never use them. The band flutter alone would be so inconducive to stealthiness that no way would I use them. I agree with Jon that an 8mm shaft and 4 bands max with open track is the way to go. But truthfully you dont need 4 bands either. 3 bands at 350 or 400% stretch would be plenty for anything.
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Old 09-23-2014, 01:41 AM   #11
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Re: 69" Bluewater Cannon Questions

I like the idea of using an enclosed track because it leaves me the option of using 5/16, 11/32 or 3/8 shafts. Obviously, it is a waste of money to buy extra tracks, but I like the idea of rigging the gun with 3 or 4 bands and a smaller shaft for most fish, but having the option of tying on a 5th band and dropping in a 3/8 shaft/track if I ever need it. Also, it sounds fun to try each setup, film it with a high frame rate camera, and see how each band setup and diameter shaft shoots. As I mentioned, I have some time on my hands with my stitched up leg before my next trip down to Mexico.

Also, I really like using 4 bands with a 5/16 shaft to shoot medium size fish (i.e. wahoo) at maximum range. I'm sure I could get away with less, but that is the setup I have on my 165 MH Ulusub and I love it.

I'm a pretty heavy guy, I'd rather have a little extra recoil any day than have a shot fail to penetrate the fish of a lifetime.
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Old 09-23-2014, 02:18 AM   #12
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Re: 69" Bluewater Cannon Questions

With regards to ferrules ... I could never understand why people have them individually staggered. It would make much more sense to have 2 or 3 bands per ferrule as unlike with rubber bands, spectra line doesn't take up much space. I have on many occasions added an extra band in a tight band slot by simply having spectra line run through the slot right behind the band and it seems to work quite well. My guess is that you could easily have 4 bands using only 2 ferrules.

With regards to using an ET, if you plan on using several different diameter shafts then maybe an ET is not a good option. Remember that your shark fins have to be able to exit the track so you can run a wishbone over it. If for example you setup your ET to be able to shoot a 9mm shaft, once you put a 7.5mm shaft your shaft will be deep inside the track and you will need really long shark fins (much more drag) to clear the track. I find to be a problem even if using a 7.5mm shaft in an 8mm ET is using small shark fins. If you plan on using the gun with many different diameter shafts an open track is probably a better option.
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Old 09-23-2014, 02:24 AM   #13
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Re: 69" Bluewater Cannon Questions

Neptonics sells UHMW enclosed tracks in separate diameters. So I could just buy multiple tracks, and drop them in if I wanted to experiment with my setup so there would be no issue with tabs or wishbones.

And since the tracks aren't epoxied in place, just a single screw, switching them out would be pretty easy.
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Old 09-23-2014, 03:41 AM   #14
2fishin2
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Re: 69" Bluewater Cannon Questions

The fish of my lifetime is in my avatar. 155lb dogtooth tuna (strongest and most dirtiest fighting fish in the ocean) taken with a 140 Aimrite King Venom, 8mm shaft and 3 x 16mm bands cut at 350%.

IMO simple is always better. Open track with conventional muzzle and 3 x 16mm bands you can use 7-8mm shafts for any fish in the ocean. Multiple tracks for different shafts, screwing and unscrewing them is just trouble waiting to happen.

I think just some thought out, smart muzzle shaping will be your best bet. Whatever you decide take some pics of the completed work! Your previous one looks great!
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Old 09-23-2014, 05:05 AM   #15
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Re: 69" Bluewater Cannon Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2fishin2 View Post
The fish of my lifetime is in my avatar. 155lb dogtooth tuna (strongest and most dirtiest fighting fish in the ocean) taken with a 140 Aimrite King Venom, 8mm shaft and 3 x 16mm bands cut at 350%.

IMO simple is always better. Open track with conventional muzzle and 3 x 16mm bands you can use 7-8mm shafts for any fish in the ocean. Multiple tracks for different shafts, screwing and unscrewing them is just trouble waiting to happen.

I think just some thought out, smart muzzle shaping will be your best bet. Whatever you decide take some pics of the completed work! Your previous one looks great!
well obviously it worked.
But I am still curious how an 8mm shaft performs with 3 x16?

I had that set-up on a wooden gun and found the shaft to be very slow. It did not have a long stretch and the bands were probably a bit too long. SInce then I have always paired an 8mm with 4x16, but the recoil and pain of loading 4x is substancial.
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